Poaching permitted or closed canyons

[spinesnaper]

[bshwakr]

__

[darkmatter]

I'm curious what the rules actually are on the Navajo res, for both closed areas and not-closed ones. Are there areas (canyons or not) where you can just go and hike? Are the closed areas equally as closed to residents as outsiders? Who is entitled to give permission? What are the penalties?

I see that there is a lot of lake shoreline that is apparently reservation land. What about that?

My priorities are not pissing off locals, and not getting prosecuted, over being strictly by-the-book. I figure anytime I defy some authoritarian, without causing any actual harm, and get away with it, I'm doing my patriotic duty.

[CarpeyBiggs]

http://www.navajonationparks.org/permits.htm

[Scott Card]

It wasn't you. I had nothing to do with this conversation and Shane brought those canyons up....for his own purposes possibly.

There are several reasons I'm not on the park's Sh!t-list....one is that I cover my butt. If I do an overnighter in the backcountry, I get a permit. If I do a frontcountry canyon, I get a permit. If a the majority of the drainage is inside the park and technical, I get a permit.

Here's the 'however'...However, the permit system is neither convenient nor private. In other words, rangers might have a tendency to tell their local climbing buddy about said canyon that someone descended. So, I am very literal when getting my permits. If I enter the North Fork via a technical section that is outside the park, my permit will be for the North Fork. Show me in the rules where its says I have to give the Park service Apple-like location tracking for my every move outside their jurisdiction!

K

I am of the same mind set as you. I have never been cited and I try to get permits for the proper drainages I drop into. But for what ever reason I swear there is a black mark on my record in Zion. Maybe I am dreaming. If I am on a list, I certainly don't deserve to be.

[ratagonia]

I am of the same mind set as you. I have never been cited and I try to get permits for the proper drainages I drop into. But for what ever reason I swear there is a black mark on my record in Zion. Maybe I am dreaming. If I am on a list, I certainly don't deserve to be.

I seem to be on the list, too, Scott. But maybe I deserve to be...

Scandalous things Tom does:

- Take friend-of-friend foreigners canyoneering
- Tell the NPS what I think about the permit system
- Tell the NPS my opinion SHOULD count, vis a vis the permit system
- attempt to stir others to voice their opinions vis a vis the permit system
- oh, and drive my jalopy through the park at all hours...

Tom

[Scott Card]

So its your fault. Probably that Zion Canyon Coalition I donated to and joined.

[oldno7]

So its your fault. Probably that Zion Canyon Coalition I donated to and joined.

Bunch of dang activist!!! The sooner you recognize your government is here to help and protect you from all things bad, the easier your lifes will be.

[restrac2000]

Most of the Navajo land is open to access. Some are closed to both hiking and technical descents, no matter the access point. We have access to 20 feet above the Highwater line on the lake and then nothing else is entitled.

As for the patriotic duty of crossing onto Navajo land....you definitely tap into a strong American tradition. But its best to consider the Navajo land not simply private but a sovereign nation.

The nation didn't care too much about access on most of its land until people poached it and got hurt. Doing the same will only prevent any chance of future access.

I'm curious what the rules actually are on the Navajo res, for both closed areas and not-closed ones. Are there areas (canyons or not) where you can just go and hike? Are the closed areas equally as closed to residents as outsiders? Who is entitled to give permission? What are the penalties?

I see that there is a lot of lake shoreline that is apparently reservation land. What about that?

My priorities are not pissing off locals, and not getting prosecuted, over being strictly by-the-book. I figure anytime I defy some authoritarian, without causing any actual harm, and get away with it, I'm doing my patriotic duty.

[Scopulus]

...your government is here to help and protect you from all things bad...

...especially from ourselves.

[darkmatter]

As for the patriotic duty of crossing onto Navajo land....you definitely tap into a strong American tradition. But its best to consider the Navajo land not simply private but a sovereign nation.

I can't tell if you misunderstand me, or are distorting what I said for polemic effect. If the populace largely has a "keep out" attitude, I'd certainly honor that. That is not my impression, however.

The nation didn't care too much about access on most of its land until people poached it and got hurt. Doing the same will only prevent any chance of future access.

So there were incidents, and some official(s) took the lazy way out with a blanket prohibition, rather than a more focused solution. I am not convinced that limply complying with such is effective.

I certainly favor the approach of engaging the locals and following their wishes. Individually, I mean...with people who actually live near the sites. The website actually encourages the practice of asking to park at a residence, and possibly paying a small fee. Seems like a great idea.

[ratagonia]

I can't tell if you misunderstand me, or are distorting what I said for polemic effect. If the populace largely has a "keep out" attitude, I'd certainly honor that. That is not my impression, however.

So there were incidents, and some official(s) took the lazy way out with a blanket prohibition, rather than a more focused solution. I am not convinced that limply complying with such is effective.

I certainly favor the approach of engaging the locals and following their wishes. Individually, I mean...with people who actually live near the sites. The website actually encourages the practice of asking to park at a residence, and possibly paying a small fee. Seems like a great idea.

You mean...

You think the Navajo Nation does not have jurisdiction over Navajo Nation lands? That the individual people you meet are the one who make the rules?

So, at my house, the National rules do not apply? I can impose whatever rules I so choose, regardless of whatever national, state or local laws are in effect???

Thanks for clearing that up, DarkBrainMatter.

Tom

[CarpeyBiggs]

really? is the website really that unclear?

AREAS CLOSED TO HIKING
Recently, the Kaibeto Chapter community has prohibited hiking and camping in the entire area of Upper Kaibeto, Navajo Canyon, Choal Canyon, (Kaibeto Creek), Peach Wash, and Butterfly Canyon. Also, the area around the Inscription House community and Tsegi Canyon, (Dowozhiebeto and Long Canyons) are closed. These Closures are due to trespassing across residential areas, NO PERMITS, DISTRUBING LIVESTOCK, LITTERING, AND THE POSSIBLE DISTRUBANCE OF FRAGILE ARCHAEOLOGICAL RUINS

that pretty much sums it up well. the navajo have dealt with a lot of people misunderstanding their culture, and being very disrespectful. as far as i can tell, having people randomly show up to locals houses and ask for permission to enter their lands is exactly what they want avoided. in fact, in order to get a permit out there, you pretty much have to demonstrate that you will be nowhere near the places where people live or graze animals, or the permit is likely to be denied. having strangers roll up to your house and ask to do a canyon? seems a bit far fetched.

i would love to see these places accessible, but the nation is completely justified in their policies.

So there were incidents, and some official(s) took the lazy way out with a blanket prohibition, rather than a more focused solution.

seems like a pretty focused solution to me. they closed a small part of the kaibeto chapter (which is a small part of the reservation, due to problems.) the nation doesn't have the time, money, or employees to deal with issues of trespassing, SAR, looting, etc... if there was enough interest to make it worth it financially to them, i think they might consider it, like antelope. my solution would be something like this - pay to get some navajo guides trained, perhaps by community donation, and then have them available for hire as guides for those who are willing to see the canyons. don't want to pay for a guide? don't see the canyon.

edited to add: in order to access navajo canyons, you are required to have a permit. even if a local allows you access, the odds of getting a permit into closed areas are pretty much nil. and just because a local allows you to cross the land, doesn't mean they have a complete understanding of their chapter's policies. in other words, stop poaching, and use more productive methods to acquire access.

[James_B_Wads2000]

Hey Dan, what's the weather like up there on your high-horse? :)

If I wasn't stuck in this wheelchair I'd be planing a trip down Kaibeto Creek right now. My canyonaro buddies and I would practice on the Eye of the Needle and Goose Creek!



James

[Scott Card]

James, What you doing up in the Canyoneering forum. ???? Don't take the bait Dan. Wheel chair? What did we miss? You alright?

[restrac2000]

I can't tell if you misunderstand me, or are distorting what I said for polemic effect. If the populace largely has a "keep out" attitude, I'd certainly honor that. That is not my impression, however.

I was shocked by the tongue in cheap "patriotism" joke. We don't get apply our own rules on Navajo land. But you mentioning doing so has a strong, vibrant history with us anglos. Guess we feel entitled to their lands on macro and micro levels as a culture.

So there were incidents, and some official(s) took the lazy way out with a blanket prohibition, rather than a more focused solution. I am not convinced that limply complying with such is effective.

I certainly favor the approach of engaging the locals and following their wishes. Individually, I mean...with people who actually live near the sites. The website actually encourages the practice of asking to park at a residence, and possibly paying a small fee. Seems like a great idea.

Its not about being "effective". Its about following the laws of a sovereign nation. They have a public system of land management, unique but similar in purpose to our own. As Tom mentioned, we don't get to role up at a Utah's home and ask permission to descend Kolob? Heck, do you stay out of the Escalante region per most "locals" request.

To your entire response, you can rationalize poaching and bribing (that is what paying someone off to look the other way with rules larger than them is at its simplest) but it still boils down to a simple, black and white legal issue. Your concept of working with the locals is an oversimplification of native law and culture and seems inherently designed to rationalize poaching. This may be a hypothetical what-if scenario but the logic is the same. Win-win for you. A possible loss for the community. But we all get to decide individually on this one.

Phillip

PS...nice use of polemic!

[restrac2000]

Not sure snipping this thread off the original was needed. Seems fair and related to the original topic. Self-policing as a community is a needed part of "cooperation" with policy. Without it we are more likely to lead to higher levels of compliance based policy; we definitely don't need any more of that as a community. There are actually people working behind the scenes to try to open Navajo lands to more access. There are tons of people descending technical canyons on Navajo land legally. But that can all be outweighed by a few publicly noted poaching.

[stefan]

So there were incidents, and some official(s) took the lazy way out with a blanket prohibition, rather than a more focused solution.

I am not convinced that simply complying with such is effective.

I certainly favor the approach of engaging the locals and following their wishes.
Individually, I mean...with people who actually live near the sites. The website actually encourages the practice of asking to park at a residence, and possibly paying a small fee. Seems like a great idea.

so if the kaibeto chapter closed the canyons are you trying to suggest that it's reasonable to circumvent that by merely asking a family that lives nearby the canyon if it's okay and basing it entirely on that single response, rather than the collective decision of the chapter? and that this is your reading of the suggestion of the website which has more to do with parking and walking on the land in the immediate vicinity of some of the locals rather than entering a unequivocally closed canyon?

if there are viable ways of obtaining permission to enter the canyon, are you suggesting one shouldn't try in earnest to determine how to obtain permission in a way that's in accordance with the chapter?

or are you just try to feel out whether they are serious about their policies?

they collectively closed the canyons. and they are serious about their policies.

i agree with phillip, "non-Navajos" should respect them as a sovereign nation.

[stefan]

So there were incidents, and some official(s) took the lazy way out with a blanket prohibition, rather than a more focused solution.

right ... because they're here to serve your recreational needs .

i heard awhile back from someone at the navajo parks and rec. that during an earlier time when the canyons were closed but they were considering the possibilities and issues of reopening them, a group decided to poach one of the closed canyons on christmas eve and needed rescuing, bringing out many of the locals to deal with it. it was after this final straw that the kaibeto chapter decided to keep the canyons closed indefinitely.

[stefan]

a couple questions ...

I honestly don't think any of those canyons will ever be opened up again, so if you want to see them, you just have to take the chance.

are you trying to promote and broadcast this perspective on a webforum?

In any event, this wasn't a thread about hiking morals.

and then be dismissive of folks who have concerns about the problematic nature of doing so?

by the way ... trying to commandeer the flow of discussion on a webforum is like herding canyoneers, i mean, cats. hard to close pandora's box once you've opened it, but you apparently felt the need to mention the canyons so ...