Subway still closed? Why?

[ocanler]

I called them today. They confirmed: too dangerous, no idea when it will be re-opened at this point. Still some snow to melt at high altitude.

[oldno7]

I called them today. They confirmed: too dangerous, no idea when it will be re-opened at this point. Still some snow to melt at high altitude.

And the problem with that answer is that the Subway drainage is all mid-elevation, I would say entirely un affected by higher snow pack.

[bshwakr]

__

[deathtointernet]

Blue Creek in Wildcat Canyon yesterday. Yup, there's your problem.

[jman]

Wasn't the rescue back in April done with with the river (right fork) over 1000+ CFS? Well today the CFS is listed at 382 CFS. And the mean/average CFS for June 12 (since 1988) is 123 CFS (according to USGS Water data).

The gauge for the North fork is misleading since the Subway is the Left Fork, and not the Right Fork - but they do meetup later on, and that's where they do their measurements. So doing some deduction - the subway is probably around 200 CFS I'm guessing for today. Which seems very, very reasonable to let people go through now!

Tom, is is safe to assume that left fork and right fork share 60/40 (respectively) of the volume of the North fork?

[bshwakr]

__

[jman]

If you mean 'North Creek', I would say that 60/40 is probably accurate. I was at their confluence last weekend....there's no reason the Subway shouldn't be open.

Yea sorry for the slipup. So many directional names you gotta keep track of...lol.

I saw your report and it is very double now.

What's the park gonna do now - raise entrance fees again due to loss of revenue on permits for the subway? Haha.

[Iceaxe]

According to the Zion permit page.....

The Subway is now OPEN!!!

[ststephen]

I just tried calling Kolob visitor center and they said "my morning report still says it is closed". Maybe they haven't gotten word yet? It would be nice to hear a positive confirmation vs. just the absence of a closed message on the website.

[jman]

That's so weird Shane, as I was checking it out the same time you were. ANywho I was checking out Permits for Heaps later on this year, and noticed about 15min ago they removed the "TOP DOWN SUBWAY IS TEMPORARILY CLOSED" sign!
It must be true. Hallelujah!

And FYI - The only 5 closed slot canyons at this time are:
-Engelsted
-Imlay
-Mystery
-Orderville
-Narrows (top-down)

Suprisingly, Echo is open?

[Iceaxe]

Suprisingly, Echo is open?

Echo is kind of a strange animal.... it all depends on how much snow avalanched into the canyon over the winter. Some years the snow in the canyon is on par with other slots around the same elevation, and some years its like visiting Hoth.

The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.

[Brian in SLC]

The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.

Middle Echo 20 March 2004...

[Iceaxe]

Middle Echo 20 March 2004...

Did you ever think.... now days you would never be granted a permit.

[jman]

Middle Echo 20 March 2004...

So are you saying this is normal or abnormal for Echo for conditions in March? I've been through Echo twice, but have been in late August and October, never earlier.

I would assume that the picture is normal for March, (granted they don't let people through probably that early in the year)?

[Don]

According to the Zion permit page.....

The Subway is now OPEN!!!

I did just talk to the backcountry desk and they confirmed that it is open.

[Scott P]

Echo is kind of a strange animal.... it all depends on how much snow avalanched into the canyon over the winter. Some years the snow in the canyon is on par with other slots around the same elevation, and some years its like visiting Hoth.

The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.

Indeed. We did the canyon in mid-May 2007. Not only was there no snow, but there were only a few pools and it was pretty dry. I would bet that it was buried in snow this year.

[Iceaxe]

I've done the canyon over memorial weekend with just a few minor snow drifts. Nothing like you see in the avalanche years.

[ratagonia]

So are you saying this is normal or abnormal for Echo for conditions in March? I've been through Echo twice, but have been in late August and October, never earlier.

I would assume that the picture is normal for March, (granted they don't let people through probably that early in the year)?

In the desert, there is no "normal". A characteristic of the Utah desert, at least, is that the weather is highly variable. Usually less than 10" of precip a year, but last December we got 9" in 5 days!!!

Tom

[ratagonia]

Echo is kind of a strange animal.... it all depends on how much snow avalanched into the canyon over the winter. Some years the snow in the canyon is on par with other slots around the same elevation, and some years its like visiting Hoth.

The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.

Echo is a strange animal, and there are two important factors: 1. how much snow falls in there, and 2. how much water flow occurs during melt-off.

BIG SNOW years in Echo are the result of a lot of early snow and not so much late snow. The Early Snow falls down in there and forms huge piles of snow. If there is late snow, then that snow melts in the spring and flows through the canyon and melts much of the accumulated snow. That is what happened this year. Without that flow, the snow persists much longer.

Word is, Echo is open with an Ice Axe recommended. So someone has been through Echo and made it without too much difficulty. Perhaps Park Staff.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

So are you saying this is normal or abnormal for Echo for conditions in March? I've been through Echo twice, but have been in late August and October, never earlier.
I would assume that the picture is normal for March, (granted they don't let people through probably that early in the year)?

Dunno. I guess, since it was the third reload that day, it wasn't unexpected. We had a shuttle drop us off at the Ponderosa for a descent of Englestead, which looked frightening. So, we walked over a took a gander down Mystery, which looked bad too. Ended up at Middle Echo. Pretty funny. Long hike for a short canyon, ha ha. Did manage to punch everyone's ticket pretty well, though. I think I cured most of the folks on early season canyoning...ha ha.

I would hope the park doesn't really regulate this stuff too much. Who's to say if a canyon is in condition and when? I mean, some of us have done Imlay in the winter, starting off in the parking lot when the temperature was a balmy 16 degree F. Safe? Hardly. Not much margin. And that's...ok.