Search on for Roy woman, Oregon man missing in Zion National Park

[accadacca]

Fantastic read! Brilliant job helping them get outta there.

[Bo_Beck]

OK, I can see the argument for not closing our public lands because of conditions unforseen!? I can grasp the seriousness of the public being able to evaluate their own abilities and make their own decisions on a course of intent!? I see the contradictions of policy and abilities!? I've spent enough time listening to and sometimes responding to posts on this forum and others. Yes...it is and should be the responsibility of each of us when we choose to do a "hike". Time and time again it's stated that we should have an overdue plan? We should or shouldn't expect proffessional rescue? What should we do if we might be in over our heads? On and on the critisizm spews; "it's the parks fault, it's the hikers fault, it's the equipments fault, it's the trainers fault." So far in this thread I've seen very little praise for the individuals involved. It seems that the right decisions were made under the circumstances. Jon and Jen went for a hike, found themselves in trouble and overcame (with help from others) and made it home safely?

Where I get a bit miffed is the somewhat seeming "hipocracy" displayed periodically!?
"I've been through The Subway in similar circumstances"! "It's easy to bypass the major obstacles!"
Obviously it wasn't easy for Jon and Jen? Is it the Parks fault because they didn't know Jon and Jens tolerance and abilities?

We've all seen "127 Hours" (I haven't), but so much critisizm continues about Aaron not stating his intentions?
"If I can't get a permit for where I want to go' I get one for the nearest possible area and make a navigational error".
I really have no problem personally with straying off course occasionally, but to intentionally suggest getting permits for one area and then deviating to another? I wonder how wise this advise really is?

One comment in the thread questions why the helicopter went outside the area of The Subway? Well.......here's your answer. How 'bout' last summer's "Fat Mans Misery via Parunuweap below Labyrinth Falls" incident? Anyone remember a few years back the "Not Behunin" incident? or a few years even further back the "Subway via Wildcat" incident? or even further back the "Kolob Creek, but rather drink beer and eat steaks at Chamberlain Ranch" incident? or further back the "Orderville via Englestead (still convinced I was on track)" incident? I would only say....It's probably a good thing that helicopters are part of the equation. It's also probably a good thing that route plans, permits or some other means of plan intent are known?

I don't dissagree with how individuals percieve and react to any or all of the decisions that were made, but would suggest that you evaluate the consequences of your own decisions. What you decide may one day come back and bite you. Sometimes the conservative decision may make the most sense.

[bowjunkie]

very well put Bo !!!

[Bo_Beck]

Perhaps people who have taken an ACA course are thus qualified, right? (that's a troll, but the point is, that is the way the Park Service thinks, at times).
Tom

Enlighten me Tom? I suppose I don't see what you mean by "that is the way the Park Service thinks, at times"? Are you referring to the statement that if an individual has taken an ACA course the Park Service considers them qualified? Curious?
Bo

[ratagonia]

Enlighten me Tom? I suppose I don't see what you mean by "that is the way the Park Service thinks, at times"? Are you referring to the statement that if an individual has taken an ACA course the Park Service considers them qualified? Curious?
Bo

It was a troll, and incorrect. Thankfully, the Park Service does NOT think this way. The Park Service is very clear it does not qualify individuals in any way. Even guides, it does not use outside certifications to qualify (except WFR). To be permitted to guide (non-technical) in Zion, you must pass a Zion Knowledge test and pay your insurance. Period.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

Oh wow what a good read hearing the "whole" story now. In fact I think it was a good move for the hikers to not try something over their heads and die. I also like how some random canyoneers self rescued them with the help of "Canyonman". That was a nice twist. The only minor mistake I see is they (the stranded) were probably not watching the river as well and got passed by a couple other groups. Might have been able to get out of the canyon earlier if they had seen one of the other parties..

Two thumbs up!

[oval]

Hey Bo-

I wasnt meaning to belittle the S&R, I actually just was wondering what the procedure IS for S&R stuff in the park. I suppose the question in my mind that still remains is: Why would the Park wait 4 days, already have had a S&R underway, but NOT have sent someone down the route that was on these people's permits?

Really I just want to understand how the S&R stuff is set up. If this is standard for S&R, the take-home message for me is: Self rescue, because S&R doesn't start off of the permit and waits quite a few days to follow up on it. Now obviously I don't know what the protocol is for S&R, which is why I'm trying to get some facts about it. The S&R effort of this situation doesnt strike me as what I normally hear about with S&R cases. Thanks for any info about this.

[Sombeech]

That Canyonman was an interesting part of the story.

[ratagonia]

Hey Bo-

I wasnt meaning to belittle the S&R, I actually just was wondering what the procedure IS for S&R stuff in the park. I suppose the question in my mind that still remains is: Why would the Park wait 4 days, already have had a S&R underway, but NOT have sent someone down the route that was on these people's permits?

Really I just want to understand how the S&R stuff is set up. If this is standard for S&R, the take-home message for me is: Self rescue, because S&R doesn't start off of the permit and waits quite a few days to follow up on it. Now obviously I don't know what the protocol is for S&R, which is why I'm trying to get some facts about it. The S&R effort of this situation doesnt strike me as what I normally hear about with S&R cases. Thanks for any info about this.

SAR is an excercise in educated guesses given a set of information that is incomplete and often has incorrect information.

SAR is somewhat thwarted when people hide from potential rescue. The couple climbed up on a ledge out of sight of the canyon floor, was probably sleeping most of the time, and there was a lot of noise in the canyon from the water, therefore they missed people that went by. SAR would assume that they would put themselves in a place where anyone going through the canyon would notice them. The report was people had been through the canyon, and not seen the people. Therefore, the next place to look is in other places where they might be, such as Russell Gulch, Das Boot and past the exit - all places people have wandered into in the past.

So, while I agree it was a bad decision not to send Bo through the Subway with a loud whistle every fifty feet, that was not the IC's choice. That the Subway was in flood and hazardous to SAR personnel to travel probably played into the decision.

Tom

[ratagonia]

That Canyonman was an interesting part of the story.

I think Canyonman also thought they needed to just send someone through the canyon who could get the people out.

Tom

[Scott Card]

VERY interesting stuff. So did was this "Canyonman" part of SAR (unofficial) or just a willing and skilled guy who went in on his own? Is he just really humble or afraid he will get cited for not having a permit that he won't let us give him well deserved kudos? Results good but going alone???? Not my style for sure. Kudos to him and all who went looking and who helped.

Bo, so glad you are out there. I remember the stories you mentioned above. I still get a kick out of the "not Behunin" story, not the getting lost or the rescue part, its mostly just the name of it that still cracks me up. Thanks for all you do.

[ghawk]

I gave permission to Tom to post this story because I thought it would be useful to the canyoneering community as a warning and lesson in how we approach "easy" canyons. Mentioning Canyonman was a necessary part of that story because he was what made the rescue possible as I did not feel confident in my rescue abilities to get them out safely. I would have run the rest of the canyon and called S&R to go through for the others.
Undoubtedly people will be trying to figure out who Canyonman is and maybe I provided too good of a description in my write up. He wants to remain anonymous. He did an excellent job in that canyon and I think we can all recognize he is the main hero in all of this.
That said, Let's please keep ALL conjecture and speculation about his identity off of this site. Let it stand that he was there and helped out. He wants to remain anonymous and I think we should all respect those wishes.
thanks, Gavin

[erial]

Where can I get the "Who is Canyonman?" tee shirt?

[ilipichicuma]

I gave permission to Tom to post this story because I thought it would be useful to the canyoneering community as a warning and lesson in how we approach "easy" canyons. Mentioning Canyonman was a necessary part of that story because he was what made the rescue possible as I did not feel confident in my rescue abilities to get them out safely. I would have run the rest of the canyon and called S&R to go through for the others.
Undoubtedly people will be trying to figure out who Canyonman is and maybe I provided too good of a description in my write up. He wants to remain anonymous. He did an excellent job in that canyon and I think we can all recognize he is the main hero in all of this.
That said, Let's please keep ALL conjecture and speculation about his identity off of this site. Let it stand that he was there and helped out. He wants to remain anonymous and I think we should all respect those wishes.
thanks, Gavin

Much better than I would have said it. Good work, ghawk. That guy was the man.

[Scott Card]

I gave permission to Tom to post this story because I thought it would be useful to the canyoneering community as a warning and lesson in how we approach "easy" canyons. Mentioning Canyonman was a necessary part of that story because he was what made the rescue possible as I did not feel confident in my rescue abilities to get them out safely. I would have run the rest of the canyon and called S&R to go through for the others.
Undoubtedly people will be trying to figure out who Canyonman is and maybe I provided too good of a description in my write up. He wants to remain anonymous. He did an excellent job in that canyon and I think we can all recognize he is the main hero in all of this.
That said, Let's please keep ALL conjecture and speculation about his identity off of this site. Let it stand that he was there and helped out. He wants to remain anonymous and I think we should all respect those wishes.
thanks, Gavin

Well what good is the internet if you can't speculate, conjecture and guess???

OK, I won't ask anymore. He will just have to be imortalized in this forum having vanished in the distance.

[ratagonia]

Well what good is the internet if you can't speculate, conjecture and guess???

OK, I won't ask anymore. He will just have to be imortalized in this forum having vanished in the distance.

All he left was this silver carabiner...

T

[ratagonia]

I gave permission to Tom to post this story because I thought it would be useful to the canyoneering community as a warning and lesson in how we approach "easy" canyons. Mentioning Canyonman was a necessary part of that story because he was what made the rescue possible as I did not feel confident in my rescue abilities to get them out safely. I would have run the rest of the canyon and called S&R to go through for the others.
Undoubtedly people will be trying to figure out who Canyonman is and maybe I provided too good of a description in my write up. He wants to remain anonymous. He did an excellent job in that canyon and I think we can all recognize he is the main hero in all of this.
That said, Let's please keep ALL conjecture and speculation about his identity off of this site. Let it stand that he was there and helped out. He wants to remain anonymous and I think we should all respect those wishes.
thanks, Gavin

I changed the description of Canyonman a little bit, in this posting, to obscure his (or her) identity.

Tom

[oval]

So, while I agree it was a bad decision not to send Bo through the Subway with a loud whistle every fifty feet, that was not the IC's choice. That the Subway was in flood and hazardous to SAR personnel to travel probably played into the decision.

Tom

Thanks for the explanation of the first part about how they started searching other places than the actual route. It does make sense, even if it may have been more logical in my mind to pursue as much of the standard subway route as possible first.

As far as the last snipet goes, I think that's where the question really goes. To what extent should the Park be expected to rescue? It is a big risk. One thing that I think I learned from this is that if I am ever in a "need to be rescued" situation, being noticed is important. There are 2 groups as examples in this story. The ones in the watercourse were pretty easily spotted, the others on the top ledge were not. The importance of leaving a rope or something where you exited could very well be the difference between being found or not, a good lesson to think about if you are holing up until found.

[accadacca]

Undoubtedly people will be trying to figure out who Canyonman is and maybe I provided too good of a description in my write up. He wants to remain anonymous. He did an excellent job in that canyon and I think we can all recognize he is the main hero in all of this.
That said, Let's please keep ALL conjecture and speculation about his identity off of this site. Let it stand that he was there and helped out. He wants to remain anonymous and I think we should all respect those wishes.
thanks, Gavin

This story seems familiar. Was there a telephone booth nearby? His identity is safe in the Bogley world. Well done Canyonman!

CANYONMAN!

[Ryebrye]

This story seems familiar. Was there a telephone booth nearby? His identity is safe in the Bogley world. Well done Canyonman!

CANYONMAN!

easily the best post of the century.

+1 for Canyonman.