A question about retrievable anchors

[Jaxx]

Another for the sandtrap. We used it last month in Quandry and it was awesome!

[CarpeyBiggs]

so did they leave their rope behind?

no doubt there's plenty of ways to skin a cat. hooks in navajo sandstone don't inspire a lot of confidence for me, personally. but then again, i tend to be a little anchor shy. not sure i'd feel good about a biner-hueco-chock either. shame you've got no photos though, to think how much we could've benefitted from this analysis...

[ratagonia]

What hook are you usually using?

He said a Cliffhanger, which is a BD product.

Hooks are not all that strong; Navajo sandstone is not all that strong especially to point pressure; hooks need to be used very carefully.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

He said a Cliffhanger, which is a BD product.

Hooks are not all that strong...

Ever see any BD hook break from use? Leeper? Fish? Vermin? Salewa? Petzl? Kong? Etc. I've seen some bent Pika hooks (the long radius thin models), but, never seen one that straightened out to the point it was unusable. No way you'd bust their split tip bat hook.

Hooks are strong. Sandstone isn't.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I don't have a picture of our hook placement in Red Spur, but here is a picture I took of a hook we rappelled off of in Cable Canyon for discussion purposes. This hook released with a flip of the rope. Feel free to critique this picture until the cows come home. The hook is the same BD Cliffhanger we used in Red Spur.

[ratagonia]

Ever see any BD hook break from use? Leeper? Fish? Vermin? Salewa? Petzl? Kong? Etc. I've seen some bent Pika hooks (the long radius thin models), but, never seen one that straightened out to the point it was unusable. No way you'd bust their split tip bat hook.

Hooks are strong. Sandstone isn't.

Wasn't talking about "break", but they do flex when they are weighted. Thus changing shape, thus they can blow out of the placement. They are intended for bodyweight, and do that fairly well. Rappelling softly recommended.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Rappelling softly recommended.

Which is probably good advise for most rappel anchors.

[moab mark]

FWIW: I don't have a picture of our hook placement in Red Spur, but here is a picture I took of a hook we rappelled off of in Cable Canyon for discussion purposes. This hook released with a flip of the rope. Feel free to critique this picture until the cows come home. The hook is the same BD Cliffhanger we used in Red Spur.

I have never rappeled from a hook, so with that being said, I think I might have a few more warm fuzzies if it was set up with a biner block which in turn would allow someone on the ground to weight the pull side to keep everything nice and snug. Probably not a bad tool to haul just in case.

Mark

[oldno7]

I have never rappeled from a hook, so with that being said, I think I might have a few more warm fuzzies if it was set up with a biner block which in turn would allow someone on the ground to weight the pull side to keep everything nice and snug. Probably not a bad tool to haul just in case.

Mark

By doing what you said--you will apply double your weight in the hook. food for thought...........

[moab mark]

By doing what you said--you will apply double your weight in the hook. food for thought...........

I should of stated it a little clearer, I meant just hold down on the rope not hook in and hang. Get to work. OLD NO 7

[canyoncaver]

I should of stated it a little clearer, I meant just hold down on the rope not hook in and hang. Get to work. OLD NO 7

If the rope is anchored in any way at the bottom, (including just holding down on the rope), it still applies a 2 to 1 force on the anchor, probably not a good idea with most sandstone/hook placements. So oldno7 may not be workin' too hard, but he IS trying to help you out with some physics!

[ratagonia]

If the rope is anchored in any way at the bottom, (including just holding down on the rope), it still applies a 2 to 1 force on the anchor, probably not a good idea with most sandstone/hook placements. So oldno7 may not be workin' too hard, but he IS trying to help you out with some physics!

So, let me understand this voodoo physics here...

Mark clips the rope to the hook using a carabiner, and rappels on one strand, while on the other, I apply 5 lbs of downward force to hold the hook in place. Mysteriously, this creates a force of twice Mark's weight on the hook???

Via Quantum Tunnelling, perhaps?

T

[Iceaxe]

I don't consider Hooks as the answer for everything, they are just anther arrow in the quiver.

When doing difficult canyons, unexplored canyons, yada, yada I normally carry a BD Talon and a BD Cliffhanger. They are extremely light weight and inexpensive insurance, they can get you down a drop, out of a pothole, or up through a cliff band. I used to also carry a fifi hook but never used it so its now at the bottom of my gear bag.

Normally I like to clip a biner through the loop on the hook and than rappel double strand. That way if the hook will not release I can just pull my rope and be on my way light one hook. The picture shows a rope tied to the hook, which I seldom do. But I had Price along and figured he would just climb back up and get the hook if it wouldn't release as he is an very talented climber.

[ilipichicuma]

So, let me understand this voodoo physics here...

Mark clips the rope to the hook using a carabiner, and rappels on one strand, while on the other, I apply 5 lbs of downward force to hold the hook in place. Mysteriously, this creates a force of twice Mark's weight on the hook???

Via Quantum Tunnelling, perhaps?

T

Wormholes. I'm pretty sure it would be wormholes.

[moab mark]

in the very near future, there will be a water option insert for the trap that's pretty reliable...

I have seen a couple of prototypes has anyone seen the final product yet?

[Bo_Beck]

If the rope is anchored in any way at the bottom, (including just holding down on the rope), it still applies a 2 to 1 force on the anchor, probably not a good idea with most sandstone/hook placements. So oldno7 may not be workin' too hard, but he IS trying to help you out with some physics!

If the rope were just passed thru the anchor and not blocked at the anchor, then you'd be correct. (1kn on each side of the rope=2kn at the anchor) It seems that he stated that he'd block the descent rope and have someone at the bottom hold with enough force on the pull side to prevent the hook from moving in case the rappel side were to become unweighted slightly momentarily?