Pine Creek High Flow

[spinesnaper]

We had a permit for Pine Creek for tomorrow. We eye balled the creek tonight and cancelled our plans. I can't say how many cubic feet per second it was flowing but I am going to guess that the last rappel must be one incredible water fall right now. I am wonder if it is common for canyoneers to go down Pine Creek in class C conditions? I would guess that it would be pretty dangerous right now.

[jman]

I saw it flowing about a month ago and it was roaring. A few ZAC employees did it (4 of them), and they were all in drysuits and took them about 6 1/2 hours to do, when it can easily be done in less than 4 hours.

But the last rappel isn't even in the waterfall, so that makes it a bit safer however.

Still, very risky. Noobs would be smart to stay out for quite some time...like a month at least.

[Scott Card]

Pine Creek with a flow is a lot of fun. We didn't have a huge flow but check this thread out for some photos.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...-the-day-after.

[Petzl_Pretzel]

Pine Creek should be closed if it isn't because of phenomenally high water. The tributary is not metered/measured so the rangers can't even say accurately how much water is flowing. Several rangers said they had never seen water that high there in past years. The rangers were gonna have a look the next day...The following info may highlight the current state of the canyon:

1) immediately below the outhouse on the approach is a ROARING river which includes 3-4 swims BEFORE the first obstacle described as 'a short drop and a pool just above/near the first anchor (description from Tom's guidebook). So yes, there were 3 swims before the "first" pool. The guide states that often the watercourse is the best option, probably meaning when it's dry (or a belayed climb to the bolt). HOWEVER, the current is very swift and that pool is where you'll die staring at the first bolt 15 feet above your head while trying not to be washed around the corner and over the first-stage drop of the first rappel. The pool is over 10 feet deep at the (water)fall line and there is a raging whirlpool that will want to hold you down. It is 5 feet deep at the bolt. Escaping this pool took 15 minutes to exit the water. According to the guide, people often suit/rack up here under dry conditions.

Do not follow the water course to the first rappel this month.
Do not attempt bypassing it, because the canyon is deadly at the moment.

2) if the canyon rating system described the flow of water more precisely, i would give the water flow a 10 out of 10 for swift moving white water.

3) exiting the water took 15 mins, although covered head to toe with neoprene including neoprene rescue gloves, etc. Enough time and energy was spent simply exiting the water that bailing was mandatory. (Bailing at this point required some ball-sy, tiring, rope-less, solo-climbing moves with a heavy pack. Egressing up the gulch to the obs trail took time and mandatory solid free-climbing skills.)

noob or experienced = stay out for now

[spinesnaper]

Pine Creek should be closed if it isn't because of phenomenally high water. The tributary is not metered/measured so the rangers can't even say accurately how much water is flowing. Several rangers said they had never seen water that high there in past years. The rangers were gonna have a look the next day...The following info may highlight the current state of the canyon:

1) immediately below the outhouse on the approach is a ROARING river which includes 3-4 swims BEFORE the first obstacle described as 'a short drop and a pool just above/near the first anchor (description from Tom's guidebook). So yes, there were 3 swims before the "first" pool. The guide states that often the watercourse is the best option, probably meaning when it's dry (or a belayed climb to the bolt). HOWEVER, the current is very swift and that pool is where you'll die staring at the first bolt 15 feet above your head while trying not to be washed around the corner and over the first-stage drop of the first rappel. The pool is over 10 feet deep at the (water)fall line and there is a raging whirlpool that will want to hold you down. It is 5 feet deep at the bolt. Escaping this pool took 15 minutes to exit the water. According to the guide, people often suit/rack up here under dry conditions.

Do not follow the water course to the first rappel this month.
Do not attempt bypassing it, because the canyon is deadly at the moment.

2) if the canyon rating system described the flow of water more precisely, i would give the water flow a 10 out of 10 for swift moving white water.

3) exiting the water took 15 mins, although covered head to toe with neoprene including neoprene rescue gloves, etc. Enough time and energy was spent simply exiting the water that bailing was mandatory. (Bailing at this point required some ball-sy, tiring, rope-less, solo-climbing moves with a heavy pack. Egressing up the gulch to the obs trail took time and mandatory solid free-climbing skills.)

noob or experienced = stay out for now

That is pretty much what we thought when we looked at it. We did Pine Creek full of cold water last November. It was cold but fun and pleasant. This looked cold, not fun, and possibly extremely unpleasant. You have confirmed the accuracy of that assessment. Even my partner who calls himself the "canyonator" was not enthusiastic and he is a superstrong swimmer, a white water rafter, and climbs 5.10. indeed.

[ratagonia]

Pine Creek should be closed if it isn't because of phenomenally high water. The tributary is not metered/measured so the rangers can't even say accurately how much water is flowing. Several rangers said they had never seen water that high there in past years. The rangers were gonna have a look the next day...The following info may highlight the current state of the canyon:

1) immediately below the outhouse on the approach is a ROARING river which includes 3-4 swims BEFORE the first obstacle described as 'a short drop and a pool just above/near the first anchor (description from Tom's guidebook). So yes, there were 3 swims before the "first" pool. The guide states that often the watercourse is the best option, probably meaning when it's dry (or a belayed climb to the bolt). HOWEVER, the current is very swift and that pool is where you'll die staring at the first bolt 15 feet above your head while trying not to be washed around the corner and over the first-stage drop of the first rappel. The pool is over 10 feet deep at the (water)fall line and there is a raging whirlpool that will want to hold you down. It is 5 feet deep at the bolt. Escaping this pool took 15 minutes to exit the water. According to the guide, people often suit/rack up here under dry conditions.

Do not follow the water course to the first rappel this month.
Do not attempt bypassing it, because the canyon is deadly at the moment.

2) if the canyon rating system described the flow of water more precisely, i would give the water flow a 10 out of 10 for swift moving white water.

3) exiting the water took 15 mins, although covered head to toe with neoprene including neoprene rescue gloves, etc. Enough time and energy was spent simply exiting the water that bailing was mandatory. (Bailing at this point required some ball-sy, tiring, rope-less, solo-climbing moves with a heavy pack. Egressing up the gulch to the obs trail took time and mandatory solid free-climbing skills.)

noob or experienced = stay out for now

Is the Park Service your mother?

It is not the Park Service's job to protect you from yourself, though sometimes they take that role. Standing in the Parking Lot at Pine Creek, I believe people, noob or pro, can make a reasoned choice about whether they want to be in the canyon that day.

Pine Creek's flow varies rapidly. Be warned that if you go in, the flow can increase markedly while you are in there, as snow melts into the watershed.

Tom

[deathtointernet]

That would be today, from the overlook trail. Should be the drop from the first rappel out of the pool, if I am correct. Apologies about the quality of the shot, but it was pretty hard to see anything in the canyon itself. Anyway, it looks pretty intense.

[Petzl_Pretzel]

Is the Park Service your mother?

It is not the Park Service's job to protect you from yourself, though sometimes they take that role. Standing in the Parking Lot at Pine Creek, I believe people, noob or pro, can make a reasoned choice about whether they want to be in the canyon that day.

Pine Creek's flow varies rapidly. Be warned that if you go in, the flow can increase markedly while you are in there, as snow melts into the watershed.

Tom

Ha ha, no, the NPS is not my mother, nor did I intend that analogy. Even still, I don't think she would be helpful to anyone in this forum. Actually, I wrote the information in order to share/publish/contribute recent information that may be helpful for anyone considering a descent of PC, not get hammered for it. I already publicly admitted my failed attempt/mistake. So many times I have benefited when others have shared. IDK maybe the inability to perceive some tone from written text or some grammar or something I wrote made it seem like I was faulting the guide...but I only used the reference from the guide to be very specific about when and where the danger was (imagine my surprise by the 3rd swim and I still hadn't come to the "pool" ...lol...I thought each one was the pool at first...) and I assumed the watercourse suggestion for approach was for dry months. I chose to go in to the pool but did not anticipate needing to use my last safety measure and self rescue. I don't like to walk close to the line either.

Anyways, you're right that the NPS, as the administrator in Zion, has often chosen to address risk management and curtail the unnecessary utilization of skilled resources--such as a high-angle search and rescue crew for example, as I'm sure your acutely aware. (e.g. currently all the canyons that end in the Narrows are closed because momma NPS says it's not safe) The only thing I asked NPS for was a permit and condition report. I got myself in, and I got myself out. The part about "it should be closed due to high water" was a post-hoc general consensus of 2 rangers and staff at the backcountry desk and I merely went with the popular opinion among those individuals, as I have less experience than they do. No doubt we are all in favor of dispatching SAR less often . Yes, they can make a reasoned choice in the parking lot. I thought I'd offer $.02 just in case current info was relevant to their decision.

I wish we could've gotten your eye on it to see if the "higher water than ever" description was accurate...I'm sure you've seen it under so many varied conditions...

It looked like it woulda been expert fun...if you (meaning I) didn't blow the entry to the first rap. (By 'experienced' I wasn't meaning lifelong vets or professionals on the Col Plat...rather people with varying levels of canyoneering experience) I certainly don't mean to tell true experts anything...they teach me. But hey, in the end, you're right, it was my unsolicited opinion probably motivated by my mini epic the other day.

We ought to monitor when the next SAR activity in PC occurs...would be interesting since it's descended so often and you mention a number of problems can and normally do creep up in there...

That picture looks like a different pool...but hey, maybe the angle I was viewing from is throwin' me off ;)

[ratagonia]

Ha ha, no, the NPS is not my mother, nor did I intend that analogy. Even still, I don't think she would be helpful to anyone in this forum. ...

Anyways, you're right that the NPS, as the administrator in Zion, has often chosen to address risk management and curtail the unnecessary utilization of skilled resources--such as a high-angle search and rescue crew for example, as I'm sure your acutely aware. (e.g. currently all the canyons that end in the Narrows are closed because momma NPS says it's not safe) The only thing I asked NPS for was a permit and condition report. I got myself in, and I got myself out. The part about "it should be closed due to high water" was a post-hoc general consensus of 2 rangers and staff at the backcountry desk and I merely went with the popular opinion among those individuals, as I have less experience than they do. No doubt we are all in favor of dispatching SAR less often . Yes, they can make a reasoned choice in the parking lot. I thought I'd offer $.02 just in case current info was relevant to their decision.

...
We ought to monitor when the next SAR activity in PC occurs...would be interesting since it's descended so often and you mention a number of problems can and normally do creep up in there...

That picture looks like a different pool...but hey, maybe the angle I was viewing from is throwin' me off ;)

The NPS does not prohibit jumping off Angels Landing (without a parachute), yet only a few people do this each year, and most of those are by mistake (we think). I was ONLY objecting to your one statement that the NPS should manage risk for people by closing this canyon on various occasions. They already close it too often.

It IS kind of crazy to close the Narrows, but they have rules, procedures and a gauge on that, so at least it is not whimisical. Their analysis of The Narrows was that their smallest (but highly competent) ranger could not hike up the narrows above 140 cfs, so therefore the general public should be prohibited from entering the Narrows under these conditions. YES, the NPS thinks they are my mother.

I looked at Pine Creek when I drove by 2 days ago, and took some pictures (that don't show the water flow), and it looked burly. But it changes so fast... I have not done Pine Creek with flow. I have done it many times, but only in normal non-flow conditions.

Very little SAR activity in Pine Creek these days. And these last couple of years. Almost like people who go in there know what they are doing...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

It is not the Park Service's job to protect you from yourself, though sometimes they take that role. Standing in the Parking Lot at Pine Creek, I believe people, noob or pro, can make a reasoned choice about whether they want to be in the canyon that day.

^^^THIS^^^

x2

We've done Pine Creek a couple of times when it was flowing and it was a lot of fun. I would hate to see the NPS close the slot when it was flowing to protect us from ourselves.

A couple things I can tell you about Pine Creek with flow... you can't tell anything by sound. The flow of a garden hose roars and rumbles in the slot and sounds extremely scary. If the canyon is flowing be prepared for a lot of swimming. Those long walks in the deep slot all turn into long swims. If its flowing in summer the water in the slot heats up to bath tub warm because it has flowed over the slickrock above the slot.

YMMV

[Iceaxe]

OH... I almost forgot... the first time we did Pine Creek with flow (2002 maybe?) the rangerette on tunnel duty was standing on the bridge screaming at us to turn around or we would die!!!

We ignored her... You learn to do that with women after you have been married a couple of years.

Good times...

[spinesnaper]

OH... I almost forgot... the first time we did Pine Creek with flow (2002 maybe?) the rangerette on tunnel duty was standing on the bridge screaming at us to turn around or we would die!!!

We ignored her... You learn to do that with women after you have been married a couple of years.

Good times...

Funny, when we did Pine Creek in November, the crossing guards (Rangerette dudes) suggested that we were psychotic. Fortunately they were polite enough to refrain from suggesting that we also had a death wish even if they thought that.

[Scott Card]

My favorite day in Pine Creek was the day after a large flash flood when it was still flowing. (See above link to the thread) The water as Ice suggested was bathtub warm. We had to keep pulling on our wetsuit at the neck to let water in to cool off. It was a blast. I would imagine that cold water and the flow as currently reported would make it very, very difficult if not impossible but a flow under the right conditions was an absolute blast. Pine Creek with a flow made up for having to turn around and bail on an planned Imlay trip due to flash flood concerns. Our ranger that day just asked us what we were doing and was kind enough to just look at us like we were crazy. Oh and it was very loud in the canyon with the running water and water falls but perfectly safe..... for us.

[Deathcricket]

Just curious, how would you do the spot that drops in the cathedral? I imagine with high flow it would be impossible to stand there and lock in. Do you just stay on rap from the last one off the tree, then do a little switcheroo after getting the ropes right? To me that seems like the hardest part. But will check out the beginning section this weekend. I imagine actually seeing it would make it more clear on how that is the hardest part.

[ratagonia]

Just curious, how would you do the spot that drops in the cathedral? I imagine with high flow it would be impossible to stand there and lock in. Do you just stay on rap from the last one off the tree, then do a little switcheroo after getting the ropes right? To me that seems like the hardest part. But will check out the beginning section this weekend. I imagine actually seeing it would make it more clear on how that is the hardest part.

There are several possibilities, not sure which one I would use:

1. There is a "high water" anchor up above there, but it looks treacherous to get to. Someone used it!

2. You could belay people over to the bolts for the Cathedral Rappel.

3. The rap before that is directly in the watercourse, but there are some logs around so it would be possible to use a different anchor. Also, could just continue that rap down the cathedral rappel from the previous anchor. Seems like the pull would be fairly smooth.

T

[trackrunner]

looking at the pictures the conditions look fun for someone with competent high flow class c skills. those that do not have those skills it could be dangerous. keep it open to those that have done high flow class c canyons, personal responsibility.

Just curious, how would you do the spot that drops in the cathedral? I imagine with high flow it would be impossible to stand there and lock in. Do you just stay on rap from the last one off the tree, then do a little switcheroo after getting the ropes right? To me that seems like the hardest part. But will check out the beginning section this weekend. I imagine actually seeing it would make it more clear on how that is the hardest part.

Did a canyon in Arizona last year during high flow. natural anchor setups were migrated back 5-10ft out of the flow on dry land. you would rig on the dry land and then walk into the flow for the rappel.

as for pine creek, not being down there and scouting the route under these conditions, I'd suspect you would have to build anchors in new locations. some of the current anchor set ups are not ideal for flowing class c. you could build an anchor in the room above the rap to the cathedral in the dry none flowing portion (if the flow isn't that large).

a couple years ago I did the subway in high flow. wasn't expecting it and it was scary. we had to build a new anchor for keyhole falls. you would have been swept over the falls trying to access the existing anchor.

[Iceaxe]

Just curious, how would you do the spot that drops in the cathedral?

We sling the old logjam just above the Cathedral.

The 'lean-too' anchors are a big No-No with flow.

I've also seen it done as a slide/jump by a couple youngin's still in their invincible youth, but I highly advise against that method.

[tfowles]

Was just over there today hiking the outlook trail with some friends. Looked down in the canyon several times, and believe that it looked similar to the picture above. Sae a group of 4-5 drop in to the canyon, and heard that a group of 12 was ahead of them. It did look like the water was moving rather swiftly... Wonder how it went for them all. I would love to do the canyon with flow, but that might be a little much, even though I do have a bit of class C experience.

[nelsonccc]

1. There is a "high water" anchor up above there, but it looks treacherous to get to. Someone used it!

It actually isn't that hard to get to. If I remember correctly there is a decent foot sized ledge on the left side (LDC) that allows you to get to it. We used that anchor a few years ago to bypass a party of 12 at the cathedral. We'd been sitting there for 15 minutes and only two had been down. We wanted to use their ropes, they said no. This after we've been waiting for them for over an hour combined with the first rap. So we used the higher anchor, the fall line is in the midst of the normal anchor but we were pissed and told them to go to hell.

[Iceaxe]

we were pissed and told them to go to hell.

I like... We have done this before... it reminds me of the guy driving in the fast lane exactly at the posted speed limit that believes it's his job to slow do others who are speeding...