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Thread: Scout Leader Training Opportunity.

  1. #1

    Scout Leader Training Opportunity.

    I was told by a friend this was way to hard to find in the back of the other thread.

    So for all you Scout Leaders out there, Thank You for all you do, and here you go.

    Clark and I are offering a Scout Leader Training, on the 8th and 9th of April. It will be in Utah county.
    Friday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish
    Saturday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish

    This is a 2-day Fast Track Course. The cost will be 195.00$

    Clark and I are striving to give you the best bang for your buck possible. We, with others have gone through and identified the skills a Scout Leader needs. We have tried to take out the fluff, and just give you the meat. We will also give you as many tips and tricks as possible that we have learned from running a Venturing crew for 6 years. As well as tips and tricks that we have picked up during our time out with some of the godfather's of the sport.
    We look forward to serving you, and helping you get out canyoneering with your boys, Safely.

    On another note, for those interested. Clark is being made the climbing committee chairman for the NPC. I am on the climbing committee, and we are working with Rich Carlson, and Brandt Jones GSLC to put together a canyoneering policy for the NPC. We are striving to make it simple and concise, so as to provide an achievable end game for Scout Leaders. We will also be working on training opportunities, to make it as EASY as possible to get through the soon to be required training.
    Thanks and we look forward to seeing you: Spidey

    Please R.S.V.P. so we know how many to plan on. Thank You

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  3. #2
    Woot! Another opportunity. Good on ya.
    Life is Good

  4. #3
    I am going camping this weekend and have most of my weekends booked about a month or two in advance right now (I've been busy) but I would love to do this same course. Is there a way to put my name on some sort of list to find out about this same type of course again in the future with more advanced notice?
    "My heart shall cry out for Moab..." Isaiah 15:5

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscGo View Post
    I am going camping this weekend and have most of my weekends booked about a month or two in advance right now (I've been busy) but I would love to do this same course. Is there a way to put my name on some sort of list to find out about this same type of course again in the future with more advanced notice?
    Sure thing, I will make sure and announce our next one with more notice. We are trying to squeeze in as many as we can before the summer super activity season starts. Lots and lots of scout leaders need this. We hope to at least give all of them an opportunity for the training, before it becomes mandatory. P.m. Me and I will make sure and let you know individually as well. Looking forward to working with you.
    Spidey

  6. #5
    did you guys ever decide on those who passed the last course with Rich and you???
    Stop checking my spelling! I know I suck but I amn't in school anymor, so back off.

  7. #6
    I don't know who was incharge of the testing. I was asked to assist Spidey and Clark who I believe were asked to assist ....? So, Rich may know but I believe it was actually Brant (Sp?) from the SLC council.
    Life is Good

  8. #7
    Ya, I am pretty sure no one passed. Wasted day...
    The man thong is wrong.

  9. #8
    Wasn't that "test" set up by the SLC Scout Council for those who thought they could pass the test (Climbing Leader??) w/o having done the classes? I am not bagging on anyone but I thought that was a test that was set up to challenge, in effect, the necessity to have to go through the training. In other words, pass the test, skip the training. Right? I know in my little sub-test (top rope belay) the instruction I was given was that if they let go their brake hand from the rope, they were to fail. Amazing how many folks put climbers at risk in that test by letting go of the rope with the brake hand. Just sayin....

    So no one is confused, what Chabidiah and Jaxx are talking about (and I am responding to) is completly different from what Spidey is announcing above. Definitely not a wasted two days to take Spidey and Clark's class.
    Life is Good

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxx View Post
    Ya, I am pretty sure no one passed. Wasted day...
    I would say it's only a wasted day if you didn't learn anything. Even if all you learned was that you need more training to comply with BSA standards, and after all it was Free.

    That event was never advertised or intended as a COURSE. It was alway's nothing more than a test, as Scott mentioned it was a TEST OUT opportunity. The test was based entirely on BSA standards and administered much the same as the GSLC does theirs. It was organized by Rich as the NPC climbing committee chairman.

    Brandt as a climbing director from GSLC was given approval by his council to pass and give those outside his jurisdiction climbing instructor status if they passed the test. Mind you that was a one time exemption. Why did Brandt need that exemption? At the moment our council has only one Director in Blanding. I hope Brandt will jump in and correct any details I missed.

    It is not likely to be more than 6 months or so, and NPC will have a policy that is very similar to GSLC regarding canyoneering. As for climbing there is already a policy from National.

    As I mentioned in my first post, it won't be long before this type of training and testing is mandatory. We are offering these courses for those that want to avoid a disruption in their activities. In the GSLC when you turn in your tour plan, if you don't have a certified climbing instructor listed you don't go until you have one. It's pretty much that simple.

    GSLC toughened up on enforcing existing policies after they had a fatality. I am inclined to take Brandt's advice, and avoid having that be the reason why we finally start enforcing them.

    Of course there is alway's another option. You can hire a professional guide for your canyon and/or climbing trips. Those are also the 2 options given in the first presidency letter of last June.

    FWIW: Spidey

  11. #10
    There will be another Scout Leader training opportunity you can p.m. me or find details here. http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/

  12. #11
    I never meant to imply that Spidey's courses will be a wasted day. From the little exposure I had to Clark and Spidey I would say the classes are going to be top notch.

    The test out of class was a few months ago was totally set up for people to fail. There is no way anyone could have passed both the skills and written test. The Council has decided to make it rediculously difficult, time consuming, and expensive to take boys to do anything with ropes. That is of course my personal opinion.
    The man thong is wrong.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxx View Post
    I never meant to imply that Spidey's courses will be a wasted day. From the little exposure I had to Clark and Spidey I would say the classes are going to be top notch.

    The test out of class was a few months ago was totally set up for people to fail. There is no way anyone could have passed both the skills and written test. The Council has decided to make it rediculously difficult, time consuming, and expensive to take boys to do anything with ropes. That is of course my personal opinion.
    Can you give us an idea of what the skills and written test consisted of?

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark View Post
    Can you give us an idea of what the skills and written test consisted of?
    Both the written and skills tests were taken from the BSA Topping Out manual. None of us that helped with the test had any desire that it be a no win situation. It was however a test, essentially the same test used most other places nation wide as far a my understanding. I hope Brandt will step in here and fill in some of the blanks. As far as there being no way anyone could have passed. Lot's of guys in the GSLC have passed that exact same test. FWIW

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark View Post
    Can you give us an idea of what the skills and written test consisted of?
    The skills test wasn't bad. Atleast I didn't kill anyone! It consisted of 5 stations. Knots, gear (naming different types of gear ie hangers, bolts, tools, cams, nuts, rapide and knowing how to inspect the gear), anchor building (off bolts and natural), belaying someone who is top rope climbing, getting someone who is stuck on a rap-you are above belaying them. Fairly easy. The hard part about it is that you weren't being tested on your skills, you were being tested on how well you could do it the "BSA way." It didn't matter if something was ok to do. If you didn't do it the recommended way it was a fail.
    The way the BSA wants you to belay a top roper is pretty ridiculous. You cannot move your belay hand off the rope at all ever. Even if you move your other hand over to hold the rope while you are moving your main belay hand up to "reset." You have to keep your hand gripped around the rope and slide it up to reset. It is very inefficient and slow. You could not belay a fast climber with their method.
    The way I would describe the written test is redonkulous. It has about 60 questions and they are detailed. I did ok just reading through the book the night before but you need to know definitions and pretty much memorize the book. It isn't impossible but you really have to know the book to pass the written test. The written test has almost nothing to do with skills knowledge.
    There was definitely a heavy influence by the BSA's lawyers when Topping out was put together. No offense Mr. Card

    It really wouldn't be that hard to actually pass the class. The problem is that you have to have atleast 3 guys that have gone through the class to take boys (per required leaders to others ratio). That is nearly impossible for my area. The solution was to call other leaders from other troops and have them help with your outing. I don't know about others but my wife would not be happy if I was getting calls to help other troops throughout the summer taking up our weekends together. I have decided it isn't worth the hassle for me and my boys will suffer because of it but I'm not willing to put up the time or money to take them. It is a bummer because it takes almost no skill to belay a top roping scout. We had a trip for Maple Canyon planned this year that we cancelled. I would rather just go with my family anyway.

    I in no way am trying to bash Spidey, Clark, Rich or anyone else that put on the class. They were all super helpful/friendly/knowledgeable. There hands are tied by what the BSA requires. It was cool of them to offer a one time class. If I was willing to take the time to take the boys on rope related activities then I would def. take Spidey's class. Him and Clark are top notch guys. I just don't care about the scouts enough
    The man thong is wrong.

  16. #15
    A lot of the BSA reg's are difficult to understand and sometimes even harder to follow. I feel your pain on that issue for sure, as well as their ratio's are nearly impossible at this time for any of us to adhere to. We hope that we can get our council to adopt policies and regulations that will be more applicable to canyons. Whether or not the council will listen is another thing. For climbing the national office already has those policies in place, so for now there's no changing them. Their policies are definitely written from a liability stand point. The problem for those of us that would like to help scouts is this. If we don't follow their regulations we are not covered by their insurance, or at least that's my basic understanding. So for those of us that want to help it definitely makes it difficult. No easy answers I'm afraid, if there are I certainly don't have them.

    Clark and I are simply trying to provide training that will help to avoid a disaster waiting to happen. That's our concern any way, with the # of units canyoneering in our council a Fatality is a foregone conclusion with out more training. FWIW

  17. #16
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxx View Post
    It is a bummer because it takes almost no skill to belay a top roping scout.
    I think the program is better off without Jaxx as a leader.

    Tom

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    I think the program is better off without Jaxx as a leader.

    Tom
    So you think it is more like rocket science belaying a beginning and extremely slow climbing boy scout? Ages range from 12-14. Why the hate Tom?

    I guess we will disagree on this one. Belaying a good climber takes ALOT more skill with handwork/ropework. Of course in my always humble opinion.
    The man thong is wrong.

  19. #18
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxx View Post
    So you think it is more like rocket science belaying a beginning and extremely slow climbing boy scout? Ages range from 12-14. Why the hate Tom?

    I guess we will disagree on this one. Belaying a good climber takes ALOT more skill with handwork/ropework. Of course in my always humble opinion.
    Perhaps I was a bit over the top there, trying to bring wry succinctness while bumping the thread. Eschew obfuscation, I always say.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaxx
    It is a bummer because it takes almost no skill to belay a top roping scout.
    But to the point: it requires skill to do that task. Maybe not as much as brain surgery or cooking a fine paella, but it takes a set of skills, and you have some kid's health and safety under your wing, so you better have those skills.

    Look Jaxx, I know you think your skill level is really high, and any indications otherwise must be wrong, deceitful or the test too difficult. Maybe, just maybe, the more useful takeaway from that test would be that your skill level is not so hot.

    If I was running the program, and I had an adult "leader" that blamed outside forces for his own failures, I would get that "leader" out of the program as fast as possible. Taking responsibility for your OWN actions is the first step in taking on the responsibilities associated with taking other parent's kids out into the wild.

    Sorry Jaxx, I'd like to say that I am JUST reacting to your statement, and not to you, but... I am reacting to your statement, the other statements in your post, and your childish defense of your statement. Maybe you are like Dr. Jeckl and Mr. Iceaxe, with a different, abrasive personality on the Interwebs (Dr. Jones and Mr. Ratagonia?) - but your personality as revealed in this thread is not conducive to taking on the grave responsibility of having other people's kid's safety in your hands.

    Tom

  20. #19
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
    If we don't follow their regulations we are not covered by their insurance, or at least that's my basic understanding.
    Yes, and there are substantial consequences to this. Have an accident of the wrong type, you are your family could be bankrupt and living in Uncle Ernie's basement. But there's more. What about the Bishop who knew you were shading the rules, but thought everything would work out. He has liability too. The other leaders on the trip? Some liability. The facility, if private?

    And what about moral responsibility? I'm not fully versed in LDS theology, but it seems there is an emphasis on following the rules. Not following the rules is cheating. Does not cheating have spiritual consequences?

    So, it is not a little thing to be "not covered by the insurance". It is a big thing.

    But, taking a step back, having other people's kids lives in your hands is a big responsibility. I am a guide, and I do this, and I take it very seriously. I want to know that I have the training I need - canyoneering, guiding and medical - to both make the possibility of something bad happening as remote as possible, and that I had the training to deal with the consequences as well as possible. If an objective test indicated that my skill set was not up to snuff, I would take that very seriously. Being covered by insurance is one of those objective tests. I would never guide people without a pretty darn good insurance policy at my back.

    Tom

  21. #20
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    And the problem continues----while accidents are few(for the time being) Overstating ones skills is common ground.
    Having a "real" skillset is paramount to overcoming most canyon conditions. "Thinking" you have a "real" skillset only works on the internet, in real life, people can die from a lack thereof.
    I need more, and I hope most are willing to accept this reality also.

    Hopefully the BSA will get some clear,meaningful,consistant,unchanging guidlines to work with. Doesn't sound to good at present.

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