Down Blue John and out Horseshoe

[canyoncaver]

Safety trumps aesthetics? We have no argument that safety is important, and there are canyons that deserve bolts to keep the newbies from killing themselves (it's called Zions), but natural anchors are not less-safe than bolts, and we argue as an overall system, teaching newbs that there will be bolts at all the drops is an unsafe practice.

Hi Tom,

I agree with every statement you made in your post except this last one which I have some issues with.

I have rappelled off many natural anchors that were not as safe as a well-placed pair of bolts. Not saying that bolts are automatically safer, just that I could have placed bolts that were safer than the particular cairn, chock, or deadman in a particular situation. I have also rappelled off many, many natural anchors that were safer than bolts. However, some natural anchor situations force you to compromise from the ideal. Many times there is only enough material available to make a marginally-safe anchor. Many improvised anchors in Utah canyons are safe enough for rappelling, but not so good for ascending, and nowhere near rescue-ready.

I am sure that you would place a bolt if you thought it the only safe solution, and in fact I have seen photos of you doing it on your own site. The question becomes; why are only certain canyoneers qualified or approved to make this decision while others are not. Who decides who is worthy to be in the "I place a bolt when I deem it necessary" club? I'm sure that whoever placed the bolts at Aron's rappel deemed it necessary, or they wouldn't have spent the time, energy, and money to do it. I am playing devil's advocate here, but they probably thought it their best option for their skill level and using their experience and judgement whatever that happened to be. This is exactly what any of the "elite" no-bolt canyoneers do as well. It's just that the perspective is different. However, you only half-jokingly put those Blue John bolts on the list for removal, and you haven't even been to the site to see the situation! This is what comes off as elitist, absolutist, and dogmatic.

I am not disrespecting you. Your beta was greater than any other catalyst for getting me into the sport and I respect your opinion. You just need to realize how these heavy-handed comments from the "Emperor" can come across.

Your comment about Zion caused me to ask another question; As Robber's Roost becomes more popular, and hence more and more like Zion(s), will it someday become appropriate to bolt it up? You know, "to keep the newbies from killing themselves?"

What is the threshold, and who gets to make that decision and when?

[ratagonia]

Hi Tom,

I agree with every statement you made in your post except this last one which I have some issues with.

I have rappelled off many natural anchors that were not as safe as a well-placed pair of bolts. Not saying that bolts are automatically safer, just that I could have placed bolts that were safer than the particular cairn, chock, or deadman in a particular situation. I have also rappelled off many, many natural anchors that were safer than bolts. However, some natural anchor situations force you to compromise from the ideal. Many times there is only enough material available to make a marginally-safe anchor. Many improvised anchors in Utah canyons are safe enough for rappelling, but not so good for ascending, and nowhere near rescue-ready.

I am sure that you would place a bolt if you thought it the only safe solution, and in fact I have seen photos of you doing it on your own site. The question becomes; why are only certain canyoneers qualified or approved to make this decision while others are not. Who decides who is worthy to be in the "I place a bolt when I deem it necessary" club? I'm sure that whoever placed the bolts at Aron's rappel deemed it necessary, or they wouldn't have spent the time, energy, and money to do it. I am playing devil's advocate here, but they probably thought it their best option for their skill level and using their experience and judgement whatever that happened to be. This is exactly what any of the "elite" no-bolt canyoneers do as well. It's just that the perspective is different. However, you only half-jokingly put those Blue John bolts on the list for removal, and you haven't even been to the site to see the situation! This is what comes off as elitist, absolutist, and dogmatic.

I am not disrespecting you. Your beta was greater than any other catalyst for getting me into the sport and I respect your opinion. You just need to realize how these heavy-handed comments from the "Emperor" can come across.

Your comment about Zion caused me to ask another question; As Robber's Roost becomes more popular, and hence more and more like Zion(s), will it someday become appropriate to bolt it up? You know, "to keep the newbies from killing themselves?"

What is the threshold, and who gets to make that decision and when?

I claim the high horse of the RIGHT to pontificate on the forums about what bolts should or should not be placed. (Notice that this is a very small claim).

I fully support your right (and everyone's right) to place bolts when they consider it appropriate to the safety of their party. As a consequence of that support, I wish for the same support for anyone removing bolts they consider inappropriate. I suggest it is good manners to inform people of your actions in this domain, however, since I am a public figure I am subject to a higher standard in the information category than people who do not wish to get into the tussle.

So, my claim really is not that I, El Emperor, is the only one that can make these decisions. Anyone can take action, and it would be nice if they were accountable for their actions.

Bogley is a "club" with club rules. One of the rules is Tom is arrogant, elitist etc. mostly for fun. I am disappointed you do not find it to be fun... and I realize that the style I use here can be off-putting.

When I placed bolts (and when I place them now) I do so because I considered it a public service. I'm sure the persons in Bluejohn took half-an-hour to place bolts there as a public service. It is possible that they placed bolts because it was their only option, as they did not have the skills to build a safe anchor there otherwise.

There is a discussion somewhere else that discusses the education problem. The claim (whether you buy it or not) is that having bolts as anchors teaches beginners that when the going gets tough, the tough pull out a drill. Pulling out a drill in soft Navajo sandstone is not a powerful tool - first you have to carry a bolt kit, and have enough bolts; then you have to be able to get in good bolts in the soft stone. This is not a good solution. By removing "unnecessary bolts" from areas Tom has declared "natural anchor only", yes, we 'force' people into learning how to construct natural anchors. Natural anchor knowledge will get you through canyons much better than a bolt here and there.

Not the best summary of the argument... sorry, got stuff to do.

Zion is less condusive to natural anchors than other places in Utah. Zion has an extended history of a lot of bolts - other places have a history, but neither extended nor of a LOT of bolts. Mostly a bolt here and there.

Outside Zion, there are places where I consider bolts appropriate. In the Squeeze, unfortunately, is a well-known canyon that is all bolted up. For me, I would love to take out all or most of the bolts, and do it au natural, but it is too well-known as a bolted up Zion-like canyon, so I might remove a few here and there - but I don't get down there much. Bluejohn is a good case for leaving them in place - because we suspect the noobs will descend on the canyon and might not be able to build a deadman there, even if it is easy. Neon I would have left the bolts at the Cathedral, and chopped the ones higher in the canyon. Cathedral in the Desert, I put in a good bolt to work with the nest of bad to mediocre ones in place, because again, this specific anchor is used by non-canyoneers. I put in some bolts in Zion (and will this year) to open up some canyons that otherwise are difficult or annoying, because there is a shortage of canyons to do in Zion, in the spring. Etc. I apply principles, I do not apply rules.

Summary: we all get to make the decisions, it is a group thing, a muddling thing. I lobby hard to try to enroll people in my viewpoint, and thank you for the coaching on how I could do so better, without pissing off quite so many people.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Interesting. Always good to hear the fresh meat's perspective...ha ha.

Let me interject by saying, after seeing the f'n aweome piles of rocks that folks use in Pleiades as rappel anchors, that, huge stack of rock, and, heavily contructed anchors made from natural materials are NOT "natural anchors". They are what they are: constructed anchors, built anchors. Just 'cause you make a building out of rocks, doesn't mean is a natural object.

The threshold? Well, fundamentally, folks have to be responsible for their own safety. But, if you make a choice that effects the whole community, ie, you remove a well bolted anchor, then, I think morally and ethically you've injected yourself into the equation at some level. You're an active participant, not, just spragging away on the 'net.

And, replacing a bolted anchor, with a huge stack of rocks with 50 feet of sling sticking out of it just seems silly.

Pretty funny, but, my shots of Pleiades and those silly stacks of rocks have generated a number of pretty funny comments by long time, very experienced climbing friends.

Anyhoo, yeah, get some skills, including building these huge unnatural anchors in our beautiful canyons. Make sure too to leave a gob of webbing, and, hopefully not too many rope grooves in the rock. After all, a couple of well placed 3/8" diameter holes is such an eyesore and impact...not to mention just ruining the rock stackers fun.

Stay safe.

-Brian in SLC

[jman]

You're an active participant, not, just spragging away on the 'net.

spragging?

Definition.com "To prop or sustain with a sprag" ?

sprag?

Definition.com "a wooden prop used to support the roof of a mine"

I don't understand! lol

[Brian in SLC]

spragging?

Spraying + bragging = spragging.

[ratagonia]

Spraying + bragging = spragging.

Kinda like propping up tons of rock with a flimsy used 2x4???

T

[jman]

Kinda like propping up tons of rock with a flimsy used 2x4???

T

well yeah...that makes clear-as-mud sense.

But it's true, the "natural" anchors in Pleiades are gnarly.

[moabmatt]

But it's true, the "natural" anchors in Pleiades are gnarly.

What's wrong with the anchors in Pleiades?

Regarding the bolted anchor in BJ, you can get bomber knot chocks in a crack that's just a couple feet left (LDC) of the bolts.

[jman]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

And when we got to the last rappel, the deadman anchor was quite exposed (the bottom of the deadman snd webbing were exposed) so we recovered it.

That's the second trip where we had to improve the anchors there.

[Iceaxe]

Regarding the bolted anchor in BJ, you can get bomber knot chocks in a crack that's just a couple feet left (LDC) of the bolts.

Matt, are you guiding BJ? if so, I can send you some clients. I'm get at least one request a day for information on guiding the "Ralston Route".

[ratagonia]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

And when we got to the last rappel, the deadman anchor was quite exposed (the bottom of the deadman snd webbing were exposed) so we recovered it.

That's the second trip where we had to improve the anchors there.

And...

What's your point, Jman?

When you go through a canyon, you should inspect the anchors, and rebuild if they do not meet your standards. If you want, you can hire people to come along and do this for you - Matt can probably set you up for that, in selected canyons.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

What's wrong with the anchors in Pleiades?

They are ghetto...



Attachment 42612

Here ya go, though, if'n someone wanted to know the proper location for a nice bolted anchor, RP is pointin' out the spot.

[Brian in SLC]

What's your point, Jman?

When you go through a canyon, you should inspect the anchors, and rebuild if they do not meet your standards. If you want, you can hire people to come along and do this for you - Matt can probably set you up for that, in selected canyons.

The point is, with properly well done fixed anchors, they'd be bomber, good to go, low impact, would be great for everyone...

Instead of a bunch of junk.

'Bout 10 minutes with a power drill and that canyon would be buff!

Ha ha. Just kiddin'. Sorta.

Nice thing about doing it in the winter, and climbing out, is, ice screws work great in that deep, solid ice. No need to just trust all that junky crap in there.

[jman]

And...

What's your point, Jman?

When you go through a canyon, you should inspect the anchors, and rebuild if they do not meet your standards. If you want, you can hire people to come along and do this for you - Matt can probably set you up for that, in selected canyons.

Tom

Hey....good idea. They (yourself included) can setup the canyons, and I'll prepare delicious dinner in exchange. That's a awesome trade if ya ask me. Do you guys carry the ropes and my personal disposable waste bag too?

Btw Tom, I think you missed the part where I said, we REBUILT the anchor, because it was unsafe...

[trackrunner]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

were you able to pull the rock chock anchor out in the direction of the pull/load or was it in the oppoiste direction?

or was it not even wrapped around a rock chock

[ratagonia]

Hey....good idea. They (yourself included) can setup the canyons, and I'll prepare delicious dinner in exchange. That's a awesome trade if ya ask me. Do you guys carry the ropes and my personal disposable waste bag too?

Btw Tom, I think you missed the part where I said, we REBUILT the anchor, because it was unsafe...

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

And when we got to the last rappel, the deadman anchor was quite exposed (the bottom of the deadman snd webbing were exposed) so we recovered it.

That's the second trip where we had to improve the anchors there.

No, I got that. It just sounded (original above) to my ear that you were expressing resentment that you had to work the anchors, TWICE!!! Perhaps, in person, I would realize that your mood in this was ecstatic, that you got to express your 'naturalish' anchor skills twice in a short period of time.

T

[moab mark]

They are ghetto...



Attachment 42612

Here ya go, though, if'n someone wanted to know the proper location for a nice bolted anchor, RP is pointin' out the spot.

We seemed to of got off track from Blue John. I have only done Pleaides when it is just a trickle but when this canyon is a real class C I would imagine that big pile of rocks has got water flowing around if not over it? I think Oldno 7 did it when it was rippin maybe he can chime in but it seems if that anchor was knocked all over the place and the water was rippin you might have a slight problem. As I remember there was not a lot of other area around to try to build another anchor?

Mark

[P.J.]

I agree with you that no one should just assume there will be pro at any given point and if it is there it should be checked or relied on as if suspect, and everyone should be prepared to make their own anchor if possible, you just can't rely on bolts (especially with a few folks who are choppers out there.) I was merely inquiring about the current conditions and your opinion on the matter.

Hopefully there won't be any more accidents there because of good info on conditions in the canyons like particular difficulty, technical level required etc. for the aspiring noobs on helpful little sites such as this. I don't particularly want to hear about another doom and gloom this summer rather I prefer excellent trip reports.
Actually the elitism thing and the ADA example (not to be taken seriously) were a retort to the perceived snarkiness in your first reply but it is sooo difficult to perceive connotation in a forum I actually have no idea what the tone of that comment was meant to be...

I don't EVEN want to get involved, but I agree that when it's between 2 people who don't know each other and online, it's nothing like speaking face to face, seeing and hearing each inflection of every word. I've probably offended people in forums without even realizing I've done it.
What was this thread about? Oh yeah, Bluejohn.
I think the less we all leave behind the better, whatever the anchor (I'm trying to learn all the natural anchor techniques) I believe it's each persons responsibility before they go to be ready to build ALL their anchors, cause you never no what you'll come across. I'll shut up now because I don't know crap.
Tom, you're awesome and have given me more priceless advice (indirectly and directly) than you'll probably ever know.
Incognito, you sound very rational and wiser than I'll ever be.
Bogley seems to be a collection of awesome people (I hope that this all didn't sound sarcastic, because it wasn't meant to be- more proof that it's hard to know someone you don't know )
Canyoneering is fun.

[oldno7]

They are ghetto...



Attachment 42612

Here ya go, though, if'n someone wanted to know the proper location for a nice bolted anchor, RP is pointin' out the spot.

I would never partake of the bolt wars, but if I did, this would be a great spot for one in class "C" conditions.

[Brian in SLC]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead.

Probably could be carved out into it's own thread...!

Yeah, after the second rappel, you walk over to canyon right, and, there's a tatty webbing set of anchors. One was a loose block that looked semi solid on the left, and, a really not great shifty pile of rocks up a tad on the right. We retied webbing that had come loose and equilized them, and, being the hugest, I rapped off first. We dropped the short distance to the next level, and, pulled our ropes there. The ice on canyon left was thick enough to just climb up and out on (with a fat hand jam and stem in a corner). We left our rope fixed of the sling on the block at the next level.

Sheeze, I took over 200 photo's in there, and, don't have a shot of that manky 3rd rap anchor.

If there wasn't some walking distance between the first and second drop, you could probably do the whole she-bang with a long single static line... None of the rappels are that long. With flow, pulling the ropes would be an issue, though.

Neat gig.