Down Blue John and out Horseshoe

[Iceaxe]

Here's my best one to date - same kid-my son

Cool pic.

Zero-G?

[remoteman45]

You got it

[aussie1213]

That's great, makes it a lot more comfortable for me. Rat, please don't chop those bolts, I'd love to be able to share my photog skills if I make it back alive,. I someday want to be a "ghost" like you guys but definetly not there yet.

[ratagonia]

That's great, makes it a lot more comfortable for me. Rat, please don't chop those bolts, I'd love to be able to share my photog skills if I make it back alive,. I someday want to be a "ghost" like you guys but definetly not there yet.

The best way to "not become a ghost" is to learn anchoring skills before venturing into the Utah backcountry.

Are you an Aussie? When you coming out?

Tom

[Iceaxe]

please don't chop those bolts

Relying on bolts being in place in any canyon on the Colorado Plateau is a game of Russian roulette... and in the case of Robbers Roost you are playing with extra bullets.

[Brian in SLC]

The best way to "not become a ghost" is to learn anchoring skills before venturing into the Utah backcountry.

Sure, good advice.

IMHO, on the flip side of that, if you remove a perfectly good bolted anchor, and, someone gets hurt or killed, then you own some of that responsibility.

[jwurst]

At the Bluejohn big drop you can always reverse the route and exit up the West Fork or one of the many other exits if you can't figure out an anchor.

But really, basic anchor building is more of an idea list than a skill. Make sure you know how to wrap a piece of webbing around a rock or arch and remember you can explore both up-canyon and down (using a meat anchor) to find rocks. And that you can stack rocks or bury them to make them secure. Just that will get you through almost everything. Techniques for handling little emergencies that you might encounter along the way are much more complicated but you need to know them even when rappelling from a bolt.

[P.J.]

Actually, I have done it both ways on several occasions, and it is a LOT easier going down main fork than up. Down is a pretty easy slither stem and slide. Up is is a real bear. If going up, tether your pack so it hangs below you and doesn't get in the way. I've gone down east fork and up main a few times, and down main and up west a few times. Of course, west is the least interesting, so you see the best of all if you go down east and up main, but going up main is a pain.

Nat

I guess it depends on whom you ask. I agree with Tom. I've also gone up and down the main fork, and for ME, I had an easier time going UP on my second trip than DOWN the first time I went. I tied my pack to a short rope on my waist and pulled it up after each up climb. But taking technical advice from a newbie like me is probably not too wise
It's been a while since I've been to the lower narrows above the big drop. We went over the big drop, but if I remember correctly, it might not be a bad idea to leave a hand line for beginners at the entrance to the lower narrows (by the S log) if you plan on going back up. As I said, we didn't come back up, so my memory could be wrong. After doing the entire main fork and down Horseshoe (after biking from Horseshoe to the top of Bluejohn), I can say the next time I take someone to see Bluejohn and the Great Gallery, I'll hike up Horseshoe to see the pictographs, then drive around to the top of Bluejohn (or vice-versa). That full loop was a bear in the heat (not to mention I'm a wuss anyway).

[mr. incognito]

Sure, good advice.

IMHO, on the flip side of that, if you remove a perfectly good bolted anchor, and, someone gets hurt or killed, then you own some of that responsibility.

Surely Aron Ralston would have died without those particular bolts at the big drop as he might not have been able to set an anchor one handed or in the near-shock weakened condition he was in for that rappel. I'm curious, is a natural anchor possible there? Is wads of webbing preferable to a few less conspicuous bolts in this particular location? I know some of you have the pull all bolts/leave nothing mentality and I am all for "if you can leave it natural and leave nothing" view, but for me safety trumps aesthetic. I for one am sincerely hoping those bolts are there and I don't have to rig an anchor that might be less safe than a few bolts considering all options at this one location. I wasn't able to thoroughly check for possible anchors when I was there. I am hoping not to start the bolt VS. no-bolts-ever general flame war, I just want opinions on the big drop of Blue John...

[ratagonia]

Surely Aron Ralston would have died without those particular bolts at the big drop as he might not have been able to set an anchor one handed or in the near-shock weakened condition he was in for that rappel. I'm curious, is a natural anchor possible there? Is wads of webbing preferable to a few less conspicuous bolts in this particular location? I know some of you have the pull all bolts/leave nothing mentality and I am all for "if you can leave it natural and leave nothing" view, but for me safety trumps aesthetic. I for one am sincerely hoping those bolts are there and I don't have to rig an anchor that might be less safe than a few bolts considering all options at this one location. I wasn't able to thoroughly check for possible anchors when I was there. I am hoping not to start the bolt VS. no-bolts-ever general flame war, I just want opinions on the big drop of Blue John...

Ah, excellent Least Common Denominator argument... yes, we should dumb the canyons down so people who just cut off one hand can do them - ya know, because it happens so often.

Yes, Aron would have been unlikely to build his own anchor there. But ANY pre-built anchor would have worked for him, not necessarily bolted.

BOOP!

Try again.

Tom

[canyoncaver]

I am hoping not to start the bolt VS. no-bolts-ever general flame war,

I think maybe you just did.

[mr. incognito]

Ah, excellent Least Common Denominator argument... yes, we should dumb the canyons down so people who just cut off one hand can do them - ya know, because it happens so often.
Yes, Aron would have been unlikely to build his own anchor there. But ANY pre-built anchor would have worked for him, not necessarily bolted.
BOOP!
Try again.
Tom

Hi Tom, I didn't get a few key questions answered and you might be the guy in the know...Is there a bomber natural anchor for the rappel of the big drop in place? If not what are the possibilities for one there? You didn't mention if you preferred leaving ratty webbing there or if the bolts would be less conspicuous at this particular spot...

My thoughts...since this canyon due to its notoriety as Aron's trap is bound to see a few less technically experienced chaps and gals stumbling down it, wouldn't it be apropos to have secure pro in place (relatively considering any anchor can weather and degrade over time and anyone with a brain should check before trusting their life to anything) I am aware of your "leave it natural" ethic from the few posts I have read of yours and applaud that effort. I also am a wilderness advocate and would like to see things left pristine so generations can enjoy the same grandeur. I am certainly not saying let's bolt every drop. Far from it. But like I said safety trumps aesthetic and if there is not a reasonable natural anchor option would you begrudge us a few bolts so people can enjoy this spot?

However, I wanted to point out by your logic that ADA wheelchair ramps shouldn't be on buildings by stairs, if someone isn't up to the challenge they don't belong. Handicapped fellows are less likely by percentage to use any given building or "Least Common denominator" as you put it. (Please don't take this seriously merely an example to illustrate how "only the strong or desert savvy should be able to go canyoneering mentality seems like elitism) Truth is many users of all experience levels WILL probably use this particular canyon at some point due to its inadvertent fame...Also it is less technically challenging and a good place for new people to start perhaps? warmest regards (and no offense meant) Mr. Incognito

[trackrunner]

Is wads of webbing preferable

bolts can have wads of webbing too. IMO wads of webbing is a poorly constructed anchor for bolts or natural. reconstruct the anchor in a "less conspicuous way" for bolts or natural anchor. if you don't know how to tie webbing for a strong anchor you should take up another sport or take a professional class to learn how.

[mr. incognito]

bolts can have wads of webbing too. IMO wads of webbing is a poorly constructed anchor for bolts or natural. reconstruct the anchor in a "less conspicuous way" for bolts or natural anchor. if you don't know how to tie webbing for a strong anchor you should take up another sport or take a professional class to learn how.

Excellent point and I agree, by wads of webbing I meant several different groups leaving their webbing spoor because of UV damage concerns etc. Not because someone tied an epic granny knot. I was pointing out that there are place on Earth like K2 that will likely never see anyone not very proficient in their hobby visiting but I think Blue John is not on that list due to its ease. I wouldn't want to see another "Nutty Putty" type restriction due to multiple accidents at a popular spot

[trackrunner]

by wads of webbing I meant several different groups leaving their webbing spoor because of UV damage concerns etc. Not because someone tied an epic granny knot.

again I've seen this common at bolts and natural anchors. it's not restricted to one type. cut it off and retie a good piece.

for the record I'm pro good anchor placement bolt or natural

I was pointing out that there are place on Earth like K2 that will likely never see anyone not very proficient in their hobby visiting

I've read some debate among some great mountaineers suggestion the large tragedy on K2 was because a lot of people were not proficient in 8000m mountaineering to minimize the risk of that type of an accident.

[ratagonia]

Hi Tom, I didn't get a few key questions answered and you might be the guy in the know...Is there a bomber natural anchor for the rappel of the big drop in place? If not what are the possibilities for one there? You didn't mention if you preferred leaving ratty webbing there or if the bolts would be less conspicuous at this particular spot...

My thoughts...since this canyon due to its notoriety as Aron's trap is bound to see a few less technically experienced chaps and gals stumbling down it, wouldn't it be apropos to have secure pro in place (relatively considering any anchor can weather and degrade over time and anyone with a brain should check before trusting their life to anything) I am aware of your "leave it natural" ethic from the few posts I have read of yours and applaud that effort. I also am a wilderness advocate and would like to see things left pristine so generations can enjoy the same grandeur. I am certainly not saying let's bolt every drop. Far from it. But like I said safety trumps aesthetic and if there is not a reasonable natural anchor option would you begrudge us a few bolts so people can enjoy this spot?

However, I wanted to point out by your logic that ADA wheelchair ramps shouldn't be on buildings by stairs, if someone isn't up to the challenge they don't belong. Handicapped fellows are less likely by percentage to use any given building or "Least Common denominator" as you put it. (Please don't take this seriously merely an example to illustrate how "only the strong or desert savvy should be able to go canyoneering mentality seems like elitism) Truth is many users of all experience levels WILL probably use this particular canyon at some point due to its inadvertent fame...Also it is less technically challenging and a good place for new people to start perhaps? warmest regards (and no offense meant) Mr. Incognito

For one who does not wish to stir things up, you sure offer some provocative questions.

I have never done the "Hand-off" section of Bluejohn, so I am in the best position to pontificate about this particular drop - no actual facts.

The ADA does not apply to Wilderness Areas. Do we need to add a wheelchair ramp to that rappel?

Building natural anchors is not a difficult, arcane mystery requiring years of study at the feet of a guru. A one-day class with any of many providers in Utah plus some practice would put most people into the "safe" category. Thus, the "elite" covers a large percentage of the Utah canyoneering community.

Are the bolts safe? I have no idea, but, bolts are hard to place in soft sandstone, and difficult to inspect until they are really, really bad. If the bolts are no good, what are our clueless newbies going to do.

I do not know what the area looks like, but the Roost is in general friendly to natural(ish) anchors, so I would be surprised if there is not materials to construct a naturalish anchor there.

I usually bring huge wads of gnarly webbing to put on every natural anchor I build... NOT! Anchors natural and bolted tend to gather wads of webbing. This is another education issue that we work hard on. Be part of the solution.

It is not a good "introductory canyon". It offers very little canyoneering for a very long slog in the soft sand. Yes, it will see a lot of action this summer, and there will be more rescues there. Perhaps some visitors will expect to find Aron's rope still in place? And signs, water supply, an escalator back up to the car...

Safety trumps aesthetics? We have no argument that safety is important, and there are canyons that deserve bolts to keep the newbies from killing themselves (it's called Zions), but natural anchors are not less-safe than bolts, and we argue as an overall system, teaching newbs that there will be bolts at all the drops is an unsafe practice.

Tom

[mr. incognito]

again I've seen this common at bolts and natural anchors. it's not restricted to one type. cut it off and retie a good piece.

for the record I'm pro good anchor placement bolt or natural
I've read some debate among some great mountaineers suggestion the large tragedy on K2 was because a lot of people were not proficient in 8000m mountaineering to minimize the risk of that type of an accident.

Certainly any accident can be armchaired by any expert or layperson, and I agree perhaps the tragedy on K2 was because they weren't proficient enough, but they were proficient to get themselves way up there to get in a jam. In general I am trying to say that it is less likely that a noob will be stumbling around K2 than Bluejohn...


I also am for the record, pro good anchor placement bolt or natural

[mr. incognito]

For one who does not wish to stir things up, you sure offer some provocative questions.

I have never done the "Hand-off" section of Bluejohn, so I am in the best position to pontificate about this particular drop - no actual facts.

The ADA does not apply to Wilderness Areas. Do we need to add a wheelchair ramp to that rappel?

Building natural anchors is not a difficult, arcane mystery requiring years of study at the feet of a guru. A one-day class with any of many providers in Utah plus some practice would put most people into the "safe" category. Thus, the "elite" covers a large percentage of the Utah canyoneering community.

Are the bolts safe? I have no idea, but, bolts are hard to place in soft sandstone, and difficult to inspect until they are really, really bad. If the bolts are no good, what are our clueless newbies going to do.

I do not know what the area looks like, but the Roost is in general friendly to natural(ish) anchors, so I would be surprised if there is not materials to construct a naturalish anchor there.

I usually bring huge wads of gnarly webbing to put on every natural anchor I build... NOT! Anchors natural and bolted tend to gather wads of webbing. This is another education issue that we work hard on. Be part of the solution.

It is not a good "introductory canyon". It offers very little canyoneering for a very long slog in the soft sand. Yes, it will see a lot of action this summer, and there will be more rescues there. Perhaps some visitors will expect to find Aron's rope still in place? And signs, water supply, an escalator back up to the car...

Safety trumps aesthetics? We have no argument that safety is important, and there are canyons that deserve bolts to keep the newbies from killing themselves (it's called Zions), but natural anchors are not less-safe than bolts, and we argue as an overall system, teaching newbs that there will be bolts at all the drops is an unsafe practice.

Tom

I agree with you that no one should just assume there will be pro at any given point and if it is there it should be checked or relied on as if suspect, and everyone should be prepared to make their own anchor if possible, you just can't rely on bolts (especially with a few folks who are choppers out there.) I was merely inquiring about the current conditions and your opinion on the matter.

Hopefully there won't be any more accidents there because of good info on conditions in the canyons like particular difficulty, technical level required etc. for the aspiring noobs on helpful little sites such as this. I don't particularly want to hear about another doom and gloom this summer rather I prefer excellent trip reports.
Actually the elitism thing and the ADA example (not to be taken seriously) were a retort to the perceived snarkiness in your first reply but it is sooo difficult to perceive connotation in a forum I actually have no idea what the tone of that comment was meant to be...

[ratagonia]

The best way to "not become a ghost" is to learn anchoring skills before venturing into the Utah backcountry.

Are you an Aussie? When you coming out?

Tom

Snarky? You call this snarky?

I guess it could be, it is also explicitly true. And rather simplistic, yes?

Before doing something, you should gain the minimum skills required to do so safely.

I hardly find this an elitist statement, or snarky, at least in this form.

Tom

[mr. incognito]

Ah, excellent Least Common Denominator argument... yes, we should dumb the canyons down so people who just cut off one hand can do them - ya know, because it happens so often.
Yes, Aron would have been unlikely to build his own anchor there. But ANY pre-built anchor would have worked for him, not necessarily bolted.
BOOP!
Try again.
Tom

Actually I meant this one was the snarky one...the other is good advice.