Neon Canyon: Water Temps Late April

[slim]

Ok, here's the second half of my beta request.
Doing Neon at the end of April and I've never used a wetsuit for canyoneering. I sure wished I had one a few years ago in Mind Bender so I know what that water feels like about that time of year deep down in these canyons. So I need to get a wetsuit but don't know much about them.

Anybody know what the aprox water temp is in these canyons that time of year?
And, related question, what thickness wetsuits do you guys use?

Thanks again,

Mike Jewell
Idaho

[oldno7]

I'd say the most common thickness is either 3:2 or 4:3. A lot will depend on your tolerance for cold, ie. fat boys stay warmer.

[shaggy125]

Water temps? Butt A$$ cold! I did Neon and Chop in May last year and was cold in Chop with my 4:3 and 2mm shortee on top, but I'm always cold. We were a group of three and moved quick so it wasn't a moving too slow issue, it was a butt a$$ cold water issue . Neon was ok with that setup since there were slightly less swims and a lot more breaks with sun. We also dropped in high, at Tri-borough Bridges, so if you are doing any of the standard routes you will have significantly less water exposure. Again though, I am a skinny white boy who apparently doesn't have enough body fat and whines constantly about being cold. Also I remember air temps being unseasonably cool that trip. It snowed on us one of the nights (not the neon or chop days, like 5 days later).

[Brian in SLC]

Anybody know what the aprox water temp is in these canyons that time of year?
And, related question, what thickness wetsuits do you guys use?

I'm going to hazard a guess: 45 degrees F.

Now, what does it matter? Its cold.

IMHO, its not really the water temp per se, but, how long your exposure in it might be. If you treading water trying to get out of a pothole, then...that'll be different than a few seconds of shin deep wading.

In April? I'd recommend a full 7mm, ie, a 7mm farmer john with a 7mm jacket over the top of that.

Folks have died near Neon in April from cold water exposure?

Kinda the time of year to err on the side of conservatism methinks. Best to have too much than too little, as, too little can be fatal.

[Iceaxe]

Folks have died near Neon in April from cold water exposure?

The details for those that don't know:

Choprock Claims Two
http://climb-utah.com/Escalante/chop1.htm

[shaggy125]

Best to have too much than too little, as, too little can be fatal.

Too much can be bad too, a certain extremely experienced and one of the strongest canyoneers I know went through Choprock early season (meaning there was snow still in spots) with too thick of a wetsuit. Got incredibly fatigued from the immobility caused by too much neoprene and ended up actually overheating! But like Brian said, it depends more on how much cold water exposure you get, and what the outside temps are. April temps can vary so much it's hard to say what it will be like on your trip, also water levels can vary quite a bit in Neon but I'd say it's almost always tip top full that time of year (has been every year I've gone in the spring). The hikers that died in Chop were wearing shortees... Don't wear a shortee, ESPECIALLY in April! Can't even imagine how cold that would have been.

[slim]

Thanks for the great replies. I'm starting to "get it". It's COLD! And, as you might guess from my username, I don't have a lot of built-in insulation. I tried on some Oneill wetsuits the other day. The Small was a challenge to get on but it did fit pretty well, I guess. Snug all over but didn't seem to be cutting off the blood or anything like that. I then tried a Medium and it was lots easier to get on and still fit well everywhere except maybe through the chest. I've heard of wearing a thin, well fitted, wool or fleece "sweater/vest" under a wetsuit that may be a bit big on top to reduce water "pumping". Seems like a good idea. Anyone have experience with this?

[Scott P]

I've heard of wearing a thin, well fitted, wool or fleece "sweater/vest" under a wetsuit that may be a bit big on top to reduce water "pumping". Seems like a good idea. Anyone have experience with this?

Wool insulates when wet, but is also super heavy when wet. It also takes forever to try. Personally, I would go with plain neoprene.

[Iceaxe]

Bite the bullet and buy a thick wetsuit, you will be more comfortable, which will make your adventures more enjoyable. Nothing ruins a trip faster than being cold and miserable.

[slim]

Bite the bullet and buy a thick wetsuit, you will be more comfortable, which will make your adventures more enjoyable.

Thanks, IceAxe. I really appreciate your experience AND your engineering outlook. Your comments in a long thread on the "Neon Keeper..." back in '08 were very helpful.

So, when you say "thick", what do you define that as, specifically for Neon, end of April?

Mike

[Iceaxe]

For me a thick wetsuit is 5mm or thicker, but I don't get cold really easy. Quality and fit of the wetsuit are also important.... in other words.... a good fitting 3mm is warmer then a poor fitting 5mm....

But its a catch 22.... I hate spending a lot of money on wetsuits because they have a tendency to get torn up in the slots. Hit up the local dive shops and you can sometimes find a good wetsuit they are retiring at a cheap price. A wetsuit that is being retired by a dive shop is usually just getting broken in for canyoneering.

I also find that a warm fleece beanie under my helmet really helps keep me warm in cold water canyons.

[Brian in SLC]

So, when you say "thick", what do you define that as, specifically for Neon, end of April?

7mm would be a "thick" wetsuit.

Yeah, get a used one that's trashed on eBay or from a dive shop. Or, rent one.

[Scott Card]

Maybe think twice about a 7mm in my little 'ole opinion. I have one and probably will keep it for "hard times" but not canyoneering. The thicker the wet suit, the more fatigued I am in and after a canyon. My 7mm in Heaps was warm but darn near killed me fighting it all day long. It was like a full body workout for hours on end.

My current set up is a 4/3 mm and a 5mm hooded vest. I got both from Tom Jones here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=261 I was warm in the Black Hole on New Years day of 2010 in crazy cold conditions. My secret is to keep the head dry and warm (hood on the vest or fleece hat) and hands warm (neo gloves). Also, put your neo socks on first before you put your wetsuit on (wetsuit over socks). This little trick does wonders for keeping your feet warm.

[shaggy125]

I agree with Scott, I used a 7mm dive suit once and it was miserable. Couldn't move in the thing. My first suit was a new 4/3 O'Neil surfer suit, so much more comfy than the dive suits and really warm. Surfer suits are made for moving outside the water, dive suits are made for moving underwater. For cold trips I wear a 2mm shortee over the top, keeps the core warm but the arms and legs can still move unlike in the 7mm dive suit. Scott's hooded vest sounds even warmer, maybe I will get one of those too. After my O'Neil got trashed I bought one of Tom's hyperflex suits but I bought a medium and needed a small. Since it was too big, it was a LOT colder than my last one. I'm sure if you get one that fits they work fine. Now I own another O'Neil because I was so happy with my last one. $100 isn't that bad I don't think and really my old one lasted me a LOT of canyons before it became so full of holes it wasn't warm anymore (I actually still use it as a thrasher for stemming canyons on cold days). My current one has seen probably 20 or so canyon days and is still in good shape (Disclaimer: I wear knee, elbow pads, and thrift store shorts over the suit to protect the high wear points, it would get trashed MUCH quicker if I didn't wear these. Also good technique when downclimbing helps the suit last longer as well).

Remember that the suits expand after being wet for a while, if the small is hard to get on but seems manageable it will probably be just right after it gets fully saturated with water. I'm about 5' 10" and 150 ish lbs and the small O'Neil fits me perfect. Tight when I put it on, but nice after a few swims.

[slim]

Remember that the suits expand after being wet for a while, if the small is hard to get on but seems manageable it will probably be just right after it gets fully saturated with water. I'm about 5' 10" and 150 ish lbs and the small O'Neil fits me perfect. Tight when I put it on, but nice after a few swims.

Hey, great "comp". I'm 5'9" and 140 lb (wet) and the O'Neill size chart shows a small for me, and like I said, once I got it on it was like a glove. So if it works for you too, sounds like that's the size for me. So I'm thinking that a 4/3 well fitting suit with neo socks and gloves and a fleece hat might be just the ticket for me in Neon end of April. And yes, I've read in numerous places that wearing a thin nylon or other layer over the suit can prolong the life in abrasive uses (like sandstone canyons).

I'm in the San Diego area right now. Know any good used dive equip shops or other good places to get wetsuits near here?

Mike

[Iceaxe]

I'm in the San Diego area right now. Know any good used dive equip shops or other good places to get wetsuits near here?

San Diego is the mecca for wetsuits.... check out some of the surf shops along Mission Beach or Pacific Beach for used rental wetsuits or even better... close-out items.. Surf shops will be looking to clear out old stock for the new colors and styles... Surfer wetsuits are nice because they usually allow great movement.

[Felicia]

I'm in the San Diego area right now. Know any good used dive equip shops or other good places to get wetsuits near here?

Mike

Goodwill

[shaggy125]

Ya, a buddy who lives in your area buys his suits used from surfers, says nearly new suits can be found for cheap easily from dudes who decide to take up surfing... go once or twice then sell their gear cause its been sitting in the garage for the last two years.

[slim]

Ya, a buddy who lives in your area buys his suits used from surfers, says nearly new suits can be found for cheap...

I'll start looking around. I'm only here in S.D. a couple of more weeks then back to the frozen North.
Yeah, if I can't find a good deal on a wetsuit down here, then somp'ums wrong! 8^)

Mike

[ratagonia]

I'll start looking around. I'm only here in S.D. a couple of more weeks then back to the frozen North.
Yeah, if I can't find a good deal on a wetsuit down here, then somp'ums wrong! 8^)

Mike

I find it very useful to wear Capilene polyester underwear under the wet suit. It adds warmth, and also adds some comfort. Wool- would be too heavy. Synthetics - good. The NeoSport Hyperflex suits are good because the rubber is more flexible than usual, so they fit a wider range of bodies. I would go with the looser suit and fill the looseness in the chest with Capilene. make sure the Capilene fits fairly tightly.

Neon has a lot of options. 1 hour? 2 Hour? 4 hour? 8 hour? 12 hour? 2 days? I can tolerate being cold for an hour, but not for 4 hours. In the spring, Neon is usually either very wet (with many long swims) or quite dry. If this storm is over there too, it might be filling on up right now.

Surfers require less mobility than canyoneers, so they fit their suits tighter. The fatigue from too much suit is a significant factor.

Tom