Scouting & Canyoneering

[oval]

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Mr. Oval. We will look to you for knowledge and advice regarding how to proceed. If Scout Leaders, especially LDS Scout Leaders are incompetent and incapable of learning, we should not waste our time providing them with training in technical skills and risk management as we had planned. We will put all future plans on hold until we hear your suggestions.

I'm not addressing your program at all Rich. I hope that it helps them.

In the meantime, please clear something up for me. Perhaps just my ignorance of Scouting and/or the LDS church. I didn't realize that bishops "volunteered" people as Scout Leaders based on outdoor skills. I was under the impression that Scout Leaders were chosen based on their character and their ability to positively influence young men. My understanding of programs like Climb On Safely is that the Scout Leaders don't necessarily need climbing, rappelling and canyoneering skills. If they lack said skills, they can recruit others who do possess the skills to help with outings. I'm going to feel really stupid if I misunderstood.

Nope, the Bishop can and does appoint people that they think need to get involved. It can involve experienced people, or people that want nothing to do with the outdoors at all. I have several friends in this position that have been "placed" in said position because to refuse "a calling" would be disobeying the church.

My point is simply that I doubt that this stuff is going to prevent disasters from happening, as helpful as it may be. There are fundamental issues at hand that are still un-addressed.

Poor Rich, always so defensive of his programs, even if they arent even being attacked. Takes a big ego to defend something that isnt even being attacked :D

And yes, Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states.

[rcwild]

Poor Rich, always so defensive of his programs, even if they arent even being attacked. Takes a big ego to defend something that isnt even being attacked :D

What are you referring to as my programs -- the Boy Scouts of America or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

[ratagonia]

...

My point is simply that I doubt that this stuff is going to prevent disasters from happening, as helpful as it may be. There are fundamental issues at hand that are still un-addressed.

...

And yes, Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states.

The purpose is not to prevent ALL accidents. The purpose is to prevent SOME accidents. I bet it does that.

"Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states."

You have a citation on that, that you could share with the class?

Tom

[Scott P]

"Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states."

You have a citation on that, that you could share with the class?

I have heard many people and sources say this, but I can't remember/point out everywhere I have heard it.

Here is one source:

http://reachupward.blogspot.com/2009...have-more.html

Another source of the frequency of deaths is the story of the 1996 Grand Canyon deaths at Nankoweep in the book Over the Edge: Death in the Grand Canyon.

To quote from the book:

David Phillips was at least the sixth Utahn to have died on Scouting Deaths in the past five years (two others drowned, one fell, and two were struck by lightning).

A little farther back were the Kolob deaths, but they weren't scouts.

There have many discussions on why Utah scouts seem to have so many deaths:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewTh...hreadID=101845

To me I think the answers are obvious (I am LDS and a scout leader).

1. In the LDS Church, scout leader is a "calling". Sometimes (very often in fact) the leaders called may have little or no outdoor experience at all.

2. Every boy in the LDS church is expected to be a boyscout. It is considered a duty rather than an option (it seems to be more "optional" in most troops outside the LDS church).

3. There is a push for the LDS boyscouts (and some other groups as well) to include everyone regardless of conditioning, outdoor skill or behavior.

This isn't meant to say that scouting in negative though; as said I am a scout leader myself. It's a good program for boys. There are more positive aspects of scouting than there are negative. I do think the above reasons are causes of some of the accidents though.

[ratagonia]

I have heard many people and sources say this, but I can't remember/point out everywhere I have heard it.

Here is one source:

http://reachupward.blogspot.com/2009...have-more.html

Another source of the frequency of deaths is the story of the 1996 Grand Canyon deaths at Nankoweep in the book Over the Edge: Death in the Grand Canyon.

To quote from the book:

David Phillips was at least the sixth Utahn to have died on Scouting Deaths in the past five years (two others drowned, one fell, and two were struck by lightning).

A little farther back were the Kolob deaths, but they weren't scouts.

There have many discussions on why Utah scouts seem to have so many deaths:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewTh...hreadID=101845

To me I think the answers are obvious (I am LDS and a scout leader).

1. In the LDS Church, scout leader is a "calling". Sometimes (very often in fact) the leaders called may have little or no outdoor experience at all.
2. Every boy in the LDS church is expected to be a boyscout. It is considered a duty rather than an option (it seems to be more "optional" in most troops outside the LDS church).
3. There is a push for the LDS boyscouts (and some other groups as well) to include everyone regardless of conditioning, outdoor skill or behavior.

This isn't meant to say that scouting in negative though; as said I am a scout leader myself. It's a good program for boys. There are more positive aspects of scouting than there are negative. I do think the above reasons are causes of some of the accidents though.

Thanks Scott, but none of those is a "source". A source would be something that provides data. All of these links provide anecdotes only. Listing LDS-scout deaths says NOTHING about comparative rates.

I suggest other reasons for this "fact":

- we live in Utah (most of us) and the LDS church holds meaning to us, so we are very aware of LDS-sponsored troop outing incidents.
- participation in Boy Scouts may be significantly higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- the population of Boy Scout - eligible kids is MUCH higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- All troops in Utah are within easy reach of interesting outdoor adventure locations.

Notice, I am only trying to ascertain the veracity of the statement. As yet, no reliable source. The first link does link to someone saying that on line, without references, but you know, since it is on the Internet, it must be true!

I think you will find that, across the USA, it is difficult to sign up high-quality scout leaders.

Tom

[Scott P]

I have heard many people and sources say this, but I can't remember/point out everywhere I have heard it.

It is true that I've heard the same thing several times and pointed out one place where one could read the quote above. I don't know if there is any official data available and the above isn't supposed to be an official source. The first link says the same thing (about not being an official statistic).

Part 2 was merely a quote from a book pointing out that there had been six deaths in five years for Utah scouts.

Part 3 is merely a discussion on why Utah scouts seem to get into trouble more often (probably for some/all of your reasons as well). It is possible that it isn't true, but sometimes it sure does seem that way and many have heard the same "unverifiable information".

I still think my above answers on possible reasons are valid (though just conjecture rather than the official data you are looking for). I used to work full time at scout camps (where both LDS and non-LDS troops frequent) and can't attest that some of the leaders called to the position really know nothing about the outdoors. I could tell you some stories sometime.

- we live in Utah (most of us) and the LDS church holds meaning to us, so we are very aware of LDS-sponsored troop outing incidents.
- participation in Boy Scouts may be significantly higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- the population of Boy Scout - eligible kids is MUCH higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- All troops in Utah are within easy reach of interesting outdoor adventure locations.

All good points as well. The last one could hold true for many areas/states though. Utah certainly does have easy reach to many interesting outdoor locations, but are the rescue of non-scout deaths higher than in other states (I don't know the answer; I'm just asking)?

I think you will find that, across the USA, it is difficult to sign up high-quality scout leaders.

Of course this is correct. On the other hand though, many (most) of the people "called" to be scout leaders know something about the outdoors. However, at least some of the ones "called" (such as the ones in my parent's ward) know very little or nothing about the outdoors. In my own experience, by far the most people volunteering (rather than being called) to be a scout leader know something about the outdoors.

Many (most) LDS leaders do know a lot about the outdoors. In my ward, the scouts climbed Gannet Peak last year. They go on at least one big river run every year (last year was Desolation Canyon; this year may be the Yampa/Split Mountain). They want to climb Granite Peak in Montana and climb the Colorado 14ers. We have some of the coldest winter weather in the lower 48 around here and they still go camping every month. There are many such scout leaders.

On the other hand, in my parent's ward (my dad is one of the scout leaders) in WVC, the rest of the leaders "called" (my dad volunteered) have hardly ever gone on hikes (before and after. They tried a hike to Dog Lake, but apparently it was too long for the leaders. They almost never go camping or hiking and when they do, they don't have a clue what they are doing. I have seen many such leaders come to scout camps.

When I worked at a scout camp, there were several incidences of leaders that didn't have much a clue how to camp/hike. We went on an overnight backpack and they brought things like full size frying pans and charcoal. A possible bear siting occurred and the scout leader made all the scouts throw all of their food into the bushes. This was before dinner. Obviously there was no breakfast or lunch the next day. But they did have their frying pans and charcoal.

On the other hand, at least some of them make a great effort. There are many top-notch scout leaders out there; both LDS and non. The above are just some comments/observations/eperiences rather than any official statistic. I too would like to see some veracity (supporting or debunking) of the seemingly oft repeated statement.

[mtthwlw]

I've enjoyed reading this post and the follow-up comments.

As a boy I benefited greatly from having Scout leaders who were "called" by a bishop to serve. These were all guys with large families and demanding careers, but they found time to serve because of their feeling of duty. Because of my outdoor Scouting experience, these men have saved me from a miserable couch-potato existence. We went on hikes (Mt. Whitney and others), camping trips, rafted the Kern and Salmon Rivers, rode bikes for 50 miles, spent a lot of time climbing in Joshua Tree, and did a lot of other exciting things. These leaders weren't doing this service (initially) because they chose to, but once they were called they put their hearts into it. I'm thankful for them.

As an young adult just starting out in my career and family, I was called as a Scoutmaster. I was scared. I didn't have camping equipment or a place to keep it. I didn't have any training. I didn't even have a truck. I didn't know how I would do it. But, I had a love of the outdoors and a desire to give back (and, Oval, I was guilted into it a bit). In that first year, the boys wanted to mountain bike. I didn't know anything about mountain biking, so I bought a bike and some books and then found people who would train me and help out on Wednesday nights for a few months.

Later, I moved to Southern Utah and became a Scoutmaster here. The boys wanted to climb rocks and canyoneer... so I found resources. Mr. Tom Jones put me in contact with Mark Rosen (thanks, Tom!) and Mark Rosen got me connected to Brandt. That was in the time before the Utah National Parks had Rich Carlson. I was able to get about 8 full days of training through those guys in Salt Lake-- and after the training I feel pretty capable at taking groups through canyons. (It doesn't take 8 days to get the BSA Lead Climbing card, but Brandt makes sure extensive training is available.) Thanks!

Probably the best part of all of this is getting to know other like-minded leaders. I've been able to help groups other than my own, and I've been able to get help leading groups (to keep the 1:6 ratio that Brandt mentioned) from others that I met in these classes. This way you don't have to train EVERYONE in your organization in order to take a trip.

What I mean to say in all of this is-- There is plenty of training out there. if you get "called" to Scouts, then do it correctly. Find resources. Get training. If you live in Salt Lake, contact Brandt. Sign up for a class. If you live Orem and south, contact Rich Carlson and get trained. Even if you know a lot when you start, you may end-up making connections with people who can help you be a better Scouter. I don't want to minimize the danger and the death and the other scary things that can happen. I know that it happens, and unfortunately, it happens here in Utah too often. But the real danger in Scouting is in NOT going, NOT getting training, and NOT getting the kids out of their houses and into a harness/backpack/mountain bike/etc. We have way too many lazy kids out there. I think Scouting (with well trained leaders) is the answer for a lot of kids. It was for me.

[Spidey]

I'm not addressing your program at all Rich. I hope that it helps them.


Nope, the Bishop can and does appoint people that they think need to get involved. It can involve experienced people, or people that want nothing to do with the outdoors at all. I have several friends in this position that have been "placed" in said position because to refuse "a calling" would be disobeying the church.

My point is simply that I doubt that this stuff is going to prevent disasters from happening, as helpful as it may be. There are fundamental issues at hand that are still un-addressed.

Poor Rich, always so defensive of his programs, even if they arent even being attacked. Takes a big ego to defend something that isnt even being attacked :D

And yes, Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states.

Eeehhh Wrong again! Any one in the church can turn down a calling, and it's not disobeying. I recently turned down a calling. Your assertion is absolutely wrong. As for bishops calling people with no experience just because he wants them involved. It depends on the bishop. I know many bishops, and all of them work very hard to call men that have experience in the outdoors. Here's the problem, one mans outdoor passion is not very likely to match up with 5-6 7,8, or 10-12 boys or more. So everyone does the best they can. Lord knows my bishop never should have called me to be in the scouting program. He was making a giant leap of faith that I would learn to love the outdoors!
I am curious on what planet is additional affordable training not going to help prevent disasters from happening? Isn't that exactly what training is for? If your referring to the scout leaders being called by bishops as the fundamental issues? Then your letting your dislike or ignorance for/about Mormons drip a tad heavy on your keyboard.

[Iceaxe]

Eeehhh Wrong again! Any one in the church can turn down a calling

Yes, you can turn down a calling.... Free agency is fundamental to the church..... but we both know a sizable portion of the Ward will not turn down a calling if asked.... Church members have a tendency to except a calling and do the best they can with it.... usually its a good fit and occasionally its a disaster.... I'm sure many of us can quote dozens of example of both....

Anyhoo.... back to our regularly scheduled programing....

[rcwild]

Friday-Saturday, 25-26 February
Utah County (Orem or Provo)

Friday Evening, 6:00 to 7:30: Climb On Safely Orientation
Friday Evening, 7:30 to 10:00: Written Exam
Saturday Morning, 8:00 to NOON: Skills Station Testing
Saturday Afternoon, 1:00 to 5:00: Leadership Training

This exam is one of the requirements for certification as a BSA Climbing Instructor, a prerequisite for certification as a BSA Canyoneering Leader. The exam is aimed at Scout Leaders in UNPC, but all are welcome.

There is no fee for the exam. However, all participants MUST purchase a copy of "Topping Out" in advance of the exam to study for the exam. You will be required to bring your copy of "Topping Out" with you.

RSVP at:
http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCa...ents/16397553/

Confirmed the location:

LDS church-- 1105 West 600 South in Orem
We will be in the Relief Society Room on Friday night and the Cultural Hall on Saturday.

If you plan to attend, please RSVP on the BSA meetup group linked above.

[Spidey]

Clark and I are offering a Scout Leader Training, on the 8th and 9th of April. It will be in Utah county.
Friday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish
Saturday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish

This is a 2-day Fast Track Course. The cost will be 195.00$

Clark and I are striving to give you the best bang for your buck possible. We, with others have gone through and identified the skills a Scout Leader needs. We have tried to take out the fluff, and just give you the meat. We will also give you as many tips and tricks as possible that we have learned from running a Venturing crew for 6 years. As well as tips and tricks that we have picked up during our time out with some of the godfather's of the sport.
We look forward to serving you, and helping you get out canyoneering with your boys, Safely.

On another note, for those interested. Clark is being made the climbing committee chairman for the NPC. I am on the climbing committee, and we are working with Rich Carlson, and Brandt Jones GSLC to put together a canyoneering policy for the NPC. We are striving to make it simple and concise, so as to provide an achievable end game for Scout Leaders. We will also be working on training opportunities, to make it as EASY as possible to get through the soon to be required training.
Thanks and we look forward to seeing you: Spidey

Please R.S.V.P. so we know how many to plan on. Thank You

[ratagonia]

Clark and I are offering a Scout Leader Training, on the 8th and 9th of April. It will be in Utah county.
Friday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish
Saturday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish

This is a 2-day Fast Track Course. The cost will be 195.00$

Clark and I are striving to give you the best bang for your buck possible. We, with others have gone through and identified the skills a Scout Leader needs. We have tried to take out the fluff, and just give you the meat. We will also give you as many tips and tricks as possible that we have learned from running a Venturing crew for 6 years. As well as tips and tricks that we have picked up during our time out with some of the godfather's of the sport.
We look forward to serving you, and helping you get out canyoneering with your boys, Safely.

On another note, for those interested. Clark is being made the climbing committee chairman for the NPC. I am on the climbing committee, and we are working with Rich Carlson, and Brandt Jones GSLC to put together a canyoneering policy for the NPC. We are striving to make it simple and concise, so as to provide an achievable end game for Scout Leaders. We will also be working on training opportunities, to make it as EASY as possible to get through the soon to be required training.
Thanks and we look forward to seeing you: Spidey

Please R.S.V.P. so we know how many to plan on. Thank You

Good on ya, Spidey y Clarke. Thanks for all you do. Tom

[Scott Card]

Good on ya, Spidey y Clarke. Thanks for all you do. Tom

X2

[Spidey]

There will be another Scout Leader training opportunity you can p.m. me or find details here. http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/

[Kuya]

2. Qualified Instructors

A qualified climbing/rappelling instructor who is at least 21 years of age and trained in the specific type of climbing must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A capable instructor has experience in teaching climbing and rappelling to youth, acknowledges personal limitations, and exercises good judgment in a variety of circumstances.
There must be a minimum of two instructors for all climbing and rappelling activities (up to 12 participants) and one additional instructor (at least 18 years of age) for up to each additional six participants, maintaining a 6:1 ratio. Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:

• BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
• National Outdoor Leadership School
• Wilderness Education Association
• American Mountain Guides Association
• Eastern Mountain Sports
• University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
• Professional Climbing Guide Institute
• Professional Climbing Instructors Association

For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required.
Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities. For instance, some climbers with a lot of experience have repeated the same mistakes many times without learning correct procedures.

So I am going at it again with the UNPC. Looks like the climbing director quit, BUT I have received some direction on how to proceed with getting the correct certifications. I was told by Bob Gowens to contact Ben Allen and his staff at CLAS Ropes for the training. He made it knows that the training received there will be sufficient to make you a "qualified instructor" and will allow you to manage climbing programs as required by BSA Topping out and Climb On Safely.

As far as canyoneering is concerned, it looks like it is mentioned now in the literature as a "Specialized activity" and as such, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing those activities are now required. My only question now is: what qualifies as good canyoneering training? and whose training is "good"?

[Kuya]

Climbing Policy Update for the UNPC:

I recently completed a BSA Level 2 Climbing course in the UNPC. This was a 35 hour class where everything from from topping out was covered and practical rescue skills were demonstrated and tested.

I was encouraged by the class. The training received was solid and definitely prepares Unit leaders to effectively manage a simple climbing and rappelling program.

However, this class did not do any kind of training for canyoneering. When I ask the UNPC Climbing Director (Debbie Spoons as of right now) about canyoneering policy, she doesn't have a answer for me. I'm hoping to get this figured out soon.