Scouting & Canyoneering

[Iceaxe]

I'm Vice Cdr of Grand County Search and Rescue and was OIC for the MMI incident.

Here are some pictures of the SAR

CLICK HERE

They are in some type of Windows Live format that my computer will not open, maybe some of you will have better luck.

And Mark Rosen sent this to me:

On a trip from Murray to MMI and Undercover snow was found on the slab-climbing exit, one leader took a belayed-fall down the slab and broke both ankles (and more) when slamming into a corner. Effective first aid and insulation taco was applied. A run out to cell phone coverage took awhile, but heli-evac was completed before sundown. The climber is now in hospital in Salt Lake after surgeries and recovering. It was not a scouting event but many of the group were scout leaders. there were also non scouters involved.

[rcwild]

I thought the cert for being a climbing leader was called "topping out." I can't find any info on it and I called the local council and she didn't have that on her list. Does anyone know if that is an old cert and it is called climbing lead instructor or some other name now? How often does it need to be renewed? I had to take a 10 hr class to get the topping out cert and that was a couple years ago. Also what makes a lead climbing instructor? Just that out of the two guys who are climbing instructors one of them volunteers to be the lead instructor? Or does it require more training/certs

The certification was never called Topping Out. "Topping Out" is the title of the manual. There has also been a lot of confusion about Climb On Safely. The Climb On Safely program is simply a 45 minute orientation for scout leaders and parents letting them know what BSA does to help insure scouts' safety. It states that there must be a certain ratio of qualified climbing instructors (in charge of the technical aspects of an outing) and a certain ratio of supervisors (babysitters who take charge of the scouts who are waiting for their turn to climb/rappel). Other requirements include safe site, proper equipment, etc. etc etc.

Very strange to me that the BSA issues a card to individuals who complete the 45 minute orientation. Lots of Scout Leaders out there with that card in their wallet, along with a 10-hour course who think they are certified. Very unfortunate. Steps are being taken to correct the misunderstandings of the past.

Some of the confusion stems from this text:

The climbing instructor has successfully completed a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school, a college-level climbing/rappelling course, or is a qualified BSA climbing instructor. The BSA offers a section of National Camping School for climbing directors who in turn can train climbing instructors. Every instructor must have prior experiences in teaching climbing/rappelling to youth and must agree to adhere to Climb On Safely and the guidelines set in Topping Out.

Note the high-lighted text. There are climbing schools offering 10-hour courses that start with, "This is a rope." and end 10 hours later with "Here is your certificate." Obviously not what is intended by the BSA policy.

FYI -- If you are a Scout Leader in the Great Salt Lake Council (Brandt's) or the Utah National Park Council (mine), neither council will recognize certification received from a 10-hour course from any climbing school. You are encouraged to pursue as much training as possible, including training from a climbing school if you are so inclined, but competency testing and certification is only available directly through the council. Very likely that Trapper Trails Council will adopt the same policy.

[Jaxx]

How does one become an instructor? Is it a series of classes and if so, any info on classes to become a climbing instructor in the UNP council?

[rcwild]

I am the Climbing Committee Chairman for Utah National Parks Council. I will be organizing courses and exams in several locations started in March. All will be listed at: http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/ Short-term goal is to conduct some competency exams for Scout Leaders who feel they already possess the skills necessary to serve as climbing instructors.

I also give Scout Leaders a discount on my 3-day ART of Canyoneering Workshops and 1-day Knot Craft and Anchors Workshops.

[Jaxx]

I am the Climbing Committee Chairman for Utah National Parks Council. I will be organizing courses and exams in several locations started in March. All will be listed at: http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/ Short-term goal is to conduct some competency exams for Scout Leaders who feel they already possess the skills necessary to serve as climbing instructors.

I also give Scout Leaders a discount on my 3-day ART of Canyoneering Workshops and 1-day Knot Craft and Anchors Workshops.

Sweet! Keep us posted please.

[rcwild]

Friday-Saturday, 25-26 February
Utah County (Orem or Provo)

Friday Evening, 6:00 to 7:30: Climb On Safely Orientation
Friday Evening, 7:30 to 10:00: Written Exam
Saturday Morning, 8:00 to NOON: Skills Station Testing
Saturday Afternoon, 1:00 to 5:00: Leadership Training

This exam is one of the requirements for certification as a BSA Climbing Instructor, a prerequisite for certification as a BSA Canyoneering Leader. The exam is aimed at Scout Leaders in UNPC, but all are welcome.

There is no fee for the exam. However, all participants MUST purchase a copy of "Topping Out" in advance of the exam to study for the exam. You will be required to bring your copy of "Topping Out" with you.

RSVP at:
http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCa...ents/16397553/

[Jaxx]

Friday-Saturday, 25-26 February
Utah County (Orem or Provo)

Friday Evening, 6:00 to 7:30: Climb On Safely Orientation
Friday Evening, 7:30 to 10:00: Written Exam
Saturday Morning, 8:00 to NOON: Skills Station Testing
Saturday Afternoon, 1:00 to 5:00: Leadership Training

This exam is one of the requirements for certification as a BSA Climbing Instructor, a prerequisite for certification as a BSA Canyoneering Leader. The exam is aimed at Scout Leaders in UNPC, but all are welcome.

There is no fee for the exam. However, all participants MUST purchase a copy of "Topping Out" in advance of the exam to study for the exam. You will be required to bring your copy of "Topping Out" with you.

RSVP at:
http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCa...ents/16397553/

Is there a list of the requirements or is it just "have 10 hours of approved training."
Do the testing times count in the 10 hours? Will I leave Saturday night with a climbing instructor certification if I pass the tests and complete the training? What other requirements are there for becoming a Climbing instructor and Canyoneering Leader? Is there a webpage that spells it out. Scouting.org and utahscouts.org are the most useless sites I have ever seen.
This is what I can find on climbing from http://utahscouts.org/openrosters/Vi...45&orgkey=2196

"Rock Climbing Training

So many youth are interested in rock climbing! And climbing brings many wonderful teaching opportunities as well. Please remember that a qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. To qualify as a climbing instructor, you must successfully complete a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school or a college-level climbing/rappelling course.
CLAS Ropes, the Quarry and Hanson Mountaineering are offering multiple training course to Scout leaders. These courses include:

• Climb on Safely Training
• Climb on Safely Instructor Training
• Climbing Instructor Training

Read this VITAL informationto ensure personal understanding and preparedness as well as YOUR responsibilities."


When you click on the "Read this VITAL information" link it gives a 404 error. Guess it isn't that VITAL!


Also. When I took a class at Hansen Mountaineering they gave me a little card for completing my Topping Out requirements along with a climb on safely cert card. I got the impression that is what I needed for being a climbing instructor. What was the point of the topping out certification card? Keep in mind this was 2 to 3 years ago, so mabey the rules just changed.

[rcwild]

The rules have not changed. Unfortunate that so many people have misunderstood the rules. Working to correct those misunderstandings. I have spoken with the guys at CLAS, The Quarry and Hanson Mountaineering (AKA 12 Fingers). They all know about the concerns of the past. They all know that we appreciate their training programs for Scout Leaders and encourage them to continue ... BUT ... they cannot issue certification cards.

The 10 hour minimum course specifically states that it is instructor training. The program on the 25th and 26th does not include any basic rock climbing instruction. Participants should already be competent recreational rock climbers before they show up for the exam and leader training. That has always been the intent of the BSA climbing instructor program. Our program will include leader training -- risk assessment, group dynamics, leadership, etc.

As I mentioned in a previous post, UNPC will be following GSLC's lead. They do not recognize any 10-hour course offered by any climbing school. All climbing instructors must go through their in-house training and exam. Same will be required for UNPC in the near future. For now, we know that some of the Scout Leaders carrying 10-hour cards actually are competent. We want to identify who they are and solicit their assistance to get our council's program up to par. Hopefully you will be one of them, Jaxx.

One reason people have misunderstandings is that they read one line or paragraph and come up with an interpretation without knowing the big picture. The BSA rules actually state that a Climbing Instructor for any Council or District event can only be one who was qualified through a course/exam conducted by National Camping School or through a course conducted by a BSA Climbing Director who was certified through National Camping School. The rules also state that this path to qualification is the preferred method for Climbing Instructors at Unit level, but provides an exception at unit level -- the one about successful completion of minimum 10 hours of instructor training. BSA allows a Council to create its own policies as long as those policies are at least as strict as BSA's. GSLC has opted to eliminate the 10-hour option, even for Unit level outings. So forget about any questions regarding 10 hours. The program on the 25th and 26th is not being conducted under the 10-hour deal. It will be conducted under the direction of a BSA Climbing Director; in this case Brandt Jones as I will not have my Climbing Director certification until May.

Successful completion of the exam is only one requirement. Others include current BSA registration, current Youth Protection certification, current first aid certification, etc. If you pass, you will be considered a certified assistant instructor. There will also be a mentoring requirement, but I think we can work something out for that to be retroactive if a person has a good climbing resume and a couple references. It is not our intent to create stumbling blocks for competent individuals; only to get a handle on who those competent individuals are and who needs more training/mentoring.

[Jaxx]

Thanks for the clarifications. I am trying to move some things around for this training but I have a brother coming home from an LDS mission on friday the 25th. So that is the biggest obstacle. Is it worth going and pissing off my mom?

[moab mark]

Rich,

Do you know when either you or Brandt will be able to give us a breakdown as to what exactly has to be accomplished to be certified?

Thanks

Mark

[Redpb]

Trying to make arrangements myself. I'll be gone the weekend before. Is it worth going and pissing off my wife?

[rcwild]

Is it worth going and pissing off my mom?

Of course.

Is it worth going and pissing off my wife?

Definitely.

[rcwild]

Do you know when either you or Brandt will be able to give us a breakdown as to what exactly has to be accomplished to be certified?

Can do that right now. You need to have all the BSA paperwork stuff done, plus first aid, and you need to pass the Climbing Instructor Exam. I thought there might be a possibility of having a canyoneering leader certification completely separate from the climbing instructor certification, but that's not going to happen. Currently BSA does not even mention canyoneering, so it has to fall under the climbing and rappelling program.

Mark, if you are in UNPC, we will make sure you get credit for the canyon leader training you already completed.

[moab mark]

Can do that right now. You need to have all the BSA paperwork stuff done, plus first aid, and you need to pass the Climbing Instructor Exam. I thought there might be a possibility of having a canyoneering leader certification completely separate from the climbing instructor certification, but that's not going to happen. Currently BSA does not even mention canyoneering, so it has to fall under the climbing and rappelling program.

Mark, if you are in UNPC, we will make sure you get credit for the canyon leader training you already completed.

If we pass the climbing instructor exam we can then take scouts canyoneering if we have a qualified Assistance?

[rcwild]

If we pass the climbing instructor exam we can then take scouts canyoneering if we have a qualified Assistance?

If you pass the climbing instructor exam AND complete the other BSA requirements AND you have the appropriate number of climbing instructors and supervisors (as outlined in Climb On Safely), you can take Scouts climbing and rappelling. In your specific case, because you already took the canyon leader course, you can also take them canyoneering.

[oval]

Even if the LDS church passes something like this, I fail to see how it'll be any different than 2 leaders taking 35 boys up to the Uintas and losing one. Or a group of folks dropping into Kolob, and after they realize they are in way over their head, it's already way too late.

The reality is that though guidelines are good, generic "be safe, don't do risky stuff, don't take unhealthy/at-risk kids" no more makes canyoneering for boyscouts safe than any previous scenarios.

Perhaps if they didn't have their Bishop's appoint people that are neither qualified, nor able to make sound judgments regarding wilderness activities (or simply being able to evaluate ratios of how many adults to children/youths you need for a given activity), there would be less dangerous and deadly outcomes with boyscouts in this state.

[Redpb]

Even if the LDS church passes something like this, I fail to see how it'll be any different than 2 leaders taking 35 boys up to the Uintas and losing one. Or a group of folks dropping into Kolob, and after they realize they are in way over their head, it's already way too late.

The reality is that though guidelines are good, generic "be safe, don't do risky stuff, don't take unhealthy/at-risk kids" no more makes canyoneering for boyscouts safe than any previous scenarios.

Perhaps if they didn't have their Bishop's appoint people that are neither qualified, nor able to make sound judgments regarding wilderness activities (or simply being able to evaluate ratios of how many adults to children/youths you need for a given activity), there would be less dangerous and deadly outcomes with boyscouts in this state.

'Cause this happens ONLY with the LDS church and all of volunteers around the country are more than qualified and we haven't seen anything like this anywhere else. Damn those Mormons!

[rcwild]

Even if the LDS church passes something like this, I fail to see how it'll be any different than 2 leaders taking 35 boys up to the Uintas and losing one. Or a group of folks dropping into Kolob, and after they realize they are in way over their head, it's already way too late.

The reality is that though guidelines are good, generic "be safe, don't do risky stuff, don't take unhealthy/at-risk kids" no more makes canyoneering for boyscouts safe than any previous scenarios.

Perhaps if they didn't have their Bishop's appoint people that are neither qualified, nor able to make sound judgments regarding wilderness activities (or simply being able to evaluate ratios of how many adults to children/youths you need for a given activity), there would be less dangerous and deadly outcomes with boyscouts in this state.

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Mr. Oval. We will look to you for knowledge and advice regarding how to proceed. If Scout Leaders, especially LDS Scout Leaders are incompetent and incapable of learning, we should not waste our time providing them with training in technical skills and risk management as we had planned. We will put all future plans on hold until we hear your suggestions.

In the meantime, please clear something up for me. Perhaps just my ignorance of Scouting and/or the LDS church. I didn't realize that bishops "volunteered" people as Scout Leaders based on outdoor skills. I was under the impression that Scout Leaders were chosen based on their character and their ability to positively influence young men. My understanding of programs like Climb On Safely is that the Scout Leaders don't necessarily need climbing, rappelling and canyoneering skills. If they lack said skills, they can recruit others who do possess the skills to help with outings. I'm going to feel really stupid if I misunderstood.

[ratagonia]

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Mr. Oval. We will look to you for knowledge and advice regarding how to proceed. If Scout Leaders, especially LDS Scout Leaders are incompetent and incapable of learning, we should not waste our time providing them with training in technical skills and risk management as we had planned. We will put all future plans on hold until we hear your suggestions.

In the meantime, please clear something up for me. Perhaps just my ignorance of Scouting and/or the LDS church. I didn't realize that bishops "volunteered" people as Scout Leaders based on outdoor skills. I was under the impression that Scout Leaders were chosen based on their character and their ability to positively influence young men. My understanding of programs like Climb On Safely is that the Scout Leaders don't necessarily need climbing, rappelling and canyoneering skills. If they lack said skills, they can recruit others who do possess the skills to help with outings. I'm going to feel really stupid if I misunderstood.

[Iceaxe]

Unfortunately commonsense is not a measurable attribute or a requirement for becoming a scout leader....

And no amount of training, certification or merit badge will install commonsense in those lacking.... you can't fix stupid.

I don't have the answer.... just sayin'.....