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Thread: Scouting & Canyoneering

  1. #1

    Scouting & Canyoneering

    So what's the deal with scouting and scouting leaders needing to be "Canyon Certified" in order to take their scout troops into tech canyons?

    The reason I ask is I've had two scout leaders contact me recently asking and I'd like to be able to pass along the correct info and point them in a proper direction?

    Last time I heard the scouts and canyoneering was all still in discussion. If this is something that has now become a reality where are the scout leaders supposed to go get certified?

    Anyhoo.... thanks in advance for anyone that knows.

    And in the latest news.....

    I heard a scout leader had to be air lifted out of MMI last week after breaking his leg in a fall that occurred AFTER the technical section. Anyone know the details?

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  3. #2
    My bet is that its an extention of their climbing situation.

    Makes sense.

    Makes me wonder about Kolob...

  4. #3
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    The Boy Scout rock climbing rules are written for top-roping at a BSA-established toprope area, and are not all that applicable to canyoneering. However, it a rope is involved, the BSA consider it climbing, thus...

    The Salt Lake Council has established a trial program to institute a training program for canyoneering leaders. Other councils may also be involved. The training is an extension past the climbing program (ie, people have to have completed the climbing program to enter the canyoneering program), and is based on (but not exactly the same as) the ACA Canyon Leader program.

    Scout Leaders interested should contact their councils, or maybe the Salt Lake Council and get in contact with Brandt Jones, who is heading the effort.

    Tom

  5. #4
    The Salt Lake Council is ahead of the curve and perhaps the only one requiring certification for now. I don't know what their requirements are right now but I know they are leading out in this area. I think the National Parks Council (Utah Valley and south) will be next year or the year after. I don't know the details but I am aware of actually two requirement to have qualified and/or certified leaders for this sport. The two requirements come from the LDS Church and the scouts, both of whom desire to protect themselves and the youth. There is pressure from both fronts to have better trained leaders. I believe the Church has requested that certified leaders be present in these sorts of activities as of last year. I also believe that there is no clear definition as to what that means. This request from the LDS Church is independent of the BSA. The certification process for the BSA is farther along in the SLC BSA council than anywhere else right now but yes, it IS coming from both the LDS Church and the BSA. My educated guess is that the BSA and LDS Church certification will look very much like the Canyon Leader certification offered by the ACA.
    Life is Good

  6. #5
    This is creating a lot of confusion in the local scouting community.... so if I understand what you are all saying....

    As of right now its still all in the discussion, talking and planning stages?

    There is nothing written in stone regarding exact requirements for canyoneering and what those requirements actually are?

    Thanks for the input....

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Card View Post
    My educated guess is that the BSA and LDS Church certification will look very much like the Canyon Leader certification offered by the ACA.
    Probably because the ACA has volunteered to head the certification program if I understand correctly....

  8. #7
    Has anyone seen the letter from the Church? Scott and I were at the same meeting where this was all discussed and I figured we would get a copy of the letter soon after. Our Stake Pres or Bishop has never received the letter?

    From the proposals that have been thrown around it is going to take quite a bit of training to be able to go canyoneering with scouts or church groups. I think it is around 40-60 hours. As Scott said the certification will look close to the Canyon Leader program with each group needing at least 2 cert leaders. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. In our ward if we have to follow the letter of the law we will be done. I would be willing to jump thru the hoops but there is not another leader that is willing to donate that much time or cash to get trained for a calling that only lasts a few years. They look at me like I am nuts. But for the Church and BSA to cover their behinds it is probably a necessary step.

  9. #8
    FWIW: I did find this buried in some ACA information. And I seem to recall Rich had volunteered to lead the program in some fashion, but I can't seem to find that in writing anywhere.


    Quote Originally Posted by ACA
    Canyon Leaders: ACA, BSA

    This may be a good time to mention programs we are developing between the ACA and the Boy Scouts.

    The ACA has trained quite a few Boy Scout leaders over the past 10 years and we hope to train many more in the future. Most have come to us as individuals seeking additional knowledge and technical skills prior to taking boys into canyons. Some come to us as part of a group of leaders.

    The only "certification" program the BSA has in place has been Climb On Safely. While it might be a good for top roped climbing or rappelling at a local cliff, it has left much to be desired when applied to canyoneering.

    This past year, Brandt Jones, working with other Scout leaders in the Great Salt Lake Council (GSLC), began developing a formal adult canyon leader program. They have BSA's blessing, but for now it is an experiment within one council. Brandt used the ACA's skills checklists as the basis for the program.

    I am working on a few adjustments to the ACA's skills checklists and course curriculums to more closely align our Canyon Leader program with the GSLC's. Goal in doing so is to provide a simpler "bridge" between the programs. Skills required to pass either exam will be taught in courses offered by ACA accredited training centers. GSLC will also provide training opportunities. Scout leaders who receive GSLC adult canyon leader status will only need to complete the ACA's Canyon Leadership Course, pass our Canyon Leader exam and take a Wilderness First Aid course to receive ACA Canyon Leader certification.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark View Post
    Has anyone seen the letter from the Church? Scott and I were at the same meeting where this was all discussed and I figured we would get a copy of the letter soon after. Our Stake Pres or Bishop has never received the letter?
    I will see what I can find. I just sent an email to our Stake YM leader to see if he has a copy of "the letter"...
    Life is Good

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Probably because the ACA has volunteered to head the certification program if I understand correctly....
    The concept that was presented at the ACA meeting gave the impression that you will be able to take the training thru the GSLC for a fee. Or you could take the certification from the ACA at a higher fee. I can not remember what cost were tossed around but the GSLC program would take a much longer time frame to get thru the program....... once a week for x weeks. The ACA program would be set up like the normal Tech classes.

    My next door neighbor is Kay Godfrey, he works for the GSLC and I think this program falls under his jurisdiction. I haven't talked to him about it since the original meeting but I'll see if I can find out anything new.

  12. #11
    I talked to Kay, I'm a little smarter. There is a board/committee meeting tomorrow night. The canyoneering proposal is going to be presented. If passed it will then move onto the quarterly board meeting to be ratified. He says it should pass. He did not know exactly what was being proposed but said he'll try to remember to bring me home a copy of the proposal tomorrow so I can have a look.

    Mark

  13. #12
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark View Post
    I talked to Kay, I'm a little smarter. There is a board/committee meeting tomorrow night. The canyoneering proposal is going to be presented. If passed it will then move onto the quarterly board meeting to be ratified. He says it should pass. He did not know exactly what was being proposed but said he'll try to remember to bring me home a copy of the proposal tomorrow so I can have a look.

    Mark
    Brandt Jones (no relation) is the guy heading up the program at SLcouncil, the guy presenting tomorrow night.

    As I understand it, the second leader would not have to be fully certed as a canyon leader, but would be required to meet some level of training. A lot like the climbing requirements - must be one certed "Lead Climbing Guy" and can have several assistants. "Lead" does not mean lead climbing, but means is the Lead instructor, guy in charge.

    They have worked hard to put a program together. As he explained it to me, it sounded like a good program.

    Tom

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Card View Post
    I will see what I can find. I just sent an email to our Stake YM leader to see if he has a copy of "the letter"...
    Not sure the letter exists. My stake has not seen the letter but also has heard of it. Hmmmm.
    Life is Good

  15. #14
    If you are asking about the LDS Church First Presidency Letter ....
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
    YouTube Channel: CanyonsCrags

  16. #15
    I am the climbing committee chairman for the Great Salt Lake Council, BSA.

    Currently, to take scouts canyoneering you need to have trained climbing instructors.

    The rules can be found in Guide to Safe Scouting and in the Great Salt Lake Council climbing and rappelling policy.

    The Great Salt Lake Council climbing and rappelling policy can be found on the Council web page.

    One of the current rules that apply to canyoneering (during rappelling activities) is you need to have at least two BSA climbing instructors, one of which must be a Lead Climbing Instructor. (The term “lead” here applies to a head instructor who oversees the event)

    Troops, teams and crews can always contract with trained and licensed guides to run the event but the guides must adhere to the rules and regulations in Topping Out and the applicable BSA National and Council standards.

    In other words, you cannot go with “Uncle Jim” just because he has been rappelling, climbing or canyoneering before.

    A scouting analogy is that shooting sports must be conducted “under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor.” See Guide to Save Scouting.

    To reiterate, Units can participate in technical canyoneering/climbing/rappelling only with trained instructors.

    Not all leaders need to get this training. In the Great Salt Lake Council, scout leaders need only contact the climbing committee chairman, Brandt Jones, and appropriate instructors will be made available for their activity. Of course, leaders who desire can become climbing instructors.

    The letter from the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is dated June 11, 2010 and was addressed to “General Authorities; Area Seventies; Stake, District, and Mission Presidents; Bishops and Branch Presidents in the United States and Canada” and states that climbing activities “should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides or in conjunction with Scouting High Adventure programs.” It also states that it is a reaffirmation of current policies.

    I am not a representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints but copies of the letter can be obtained from the Church offices. (I see that the letter is attached in an earlier post of this thread)

    For years the Great Salt Lake Council has been encouraging climbing instructors to get as much training as possible.

    The Great Salt Lake Council has been working with the National Boy Scout office to develop a canyon leader program.

    Last year the Great Salt Lake Council began official training for the canyon leader program. The program was developed with the assistance of Rich Carlson from the ACA.

    The first requirement is to become a BSA Lead Climbing Instructor. There is skills list and canyon resume that is also required. I won’t enumerate all the requirements at this time.

    Again, not all scout leaders will need to become Great Salt Lake Council canyon leaders but they will need to have a canyon leader and at least one other climbing instructor for their activity. You need to have a minimum of 2 trained instructors at a ratio of 1 instructor for every 6 participants (scouts, dads, moms and other leaders at the event).

    It is hoped that the canyon leader policy for the Great Salt Lake Council will go into effect this spring.

    Currently we have over 60 BSA climbing instructors who have entered the canyon leader training program.

    The Great Salt Lake Council is also developing a Junior Canyoneering Patch that young men can earn.

    From what I understand, the National Parks Council and Trapper Trails Council are considering a similar canyoneering policy.

    If you have any additional thoughts, feel free to PM or to give me a call on my cell. My number can be found on the Great Salt Lake Council climbing instructor course registration page.

    Brandt

  17. #16
    Thanks to all for the information.

    It would be great if a couple of you guys into scouting could update this thread as more information becomes avaiable. We have a lot of scouts and scout leaders who follow this forum.

    And I assume this is the correct link to

    Guide to Safe Scouting

  18. #17
    Thanks Rich for the pdf and thanks Brandt for the explaination and leading out in this area. Over a decade ago when I started leading kids in canyons, I simply ignored most of the Scout climbing stuff since it simply didn't apply to canyoneering. I am so glad that Canyoneering is being recognized but more importantly, recognized for the unique challenges that need to be addressed and trained for. I look forward to certifying soon.
    Life is Good

  19. #18
    Yes and yes. In Moab we are looking for the word on what BSA wants instructors to be to take the Boys canyoneering.
    I'm Vice Cdr of Grand County Search and Rescue and was OIC for the MMI incident. 16 scout leaders from the SLC area scouting out a project for the scouts. 8 did MMI and 8 did Undercover. They met. Then... Yes the injury happened after the rope stuff just after the two groups met. They sent a few fast people out to call 911 with GPS coordinates. Page Lifeguard helicopter landed on scene. We made sure everyone else got out and shuttled some. Everyone was in a warm car just before dark. Then it was the horrific Yellow Cat mud out to I-70. Not funny.

  20. #19
    I thought the cert for being a climbing leader was called "topping out." I can't find any info on it and I called the local council and she didn't have that on her list.
    Does anyone know if that is an old cert and it is called climbing lead instructor or some other name now? How often does it need to be renewed? I had to take a 10 hr class to get the topping out cert and that was a couple years ago.
    Also what makes a lead climbing instructor? Just that out of the two guys who are climbing instructors one of them volunteers to be the lead instructor? Or does it require more training/certs
    The man thong is wrong.

  21. #20
    OK I found this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guide to Safe Scouting
    2. Qualified Instructors A qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. Contact your local council or regional service center to locate a qualified individual. The climbing instructor has successfully completed a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school, a college-level climbing/rappelling course, or is a qualified BSA climbing instructor. The BSA offers a section of National Camping School for climbing directors who in turn can train climbing instructors. Every instructor must have prior experiences in teaching climbing/rappelling to youth and must agree to adhere to Climb On Safely and the guidelines set in Topping Out.
    Still doesn't answer the questions in the above post though.
    The man thong is wrong.

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