Snowbird or Alta anyone?

[Dr. Nebz]

Agree to disagree i guess. Too bad you can't have a discussion without getting angry. Pointless to talk with you about it. Hey, at least you are passionate about something!
Seems like you are in denial about your hatred towards skiers. I don't consider myself an elitest. I almost exclusively go to Brighton, like I said before, who lets boarders ride. But I am a delusional retard so there is no point in keeping this going.

Angry? You have never seen me angry, and trust me, it is not something you ever want to experience. I was just setting the record straight pal.

I do not hate any skier, including your pesky ass. I have some really good friends that I ride with that are skiers. And I am sure the 60 ft drops they were doing at the Bird today are a little out of your league buddy.

You are delusional about the actual science of one edge vs two edges removing snow. But that is ok, keep on keeping on Jaxx. It is not going to ruin my season one bit. Today was far too good. Hope the power stays on over there at Brighton this season.

[blueeyes]

OMG that was the BEST!

Sadly I am now stuck up here until they open the road.

My legs are jello. I skied hard today, didn't stop until 230 to eat lunch.

It didn't matter where ya went there was plenty of powder. My favorite was the runs we did off of little cloud.

A few times I found myself in very steep very full of trees run. A bit over my skill level soooo much fun.

I met up with Scott, Ben and Thomas. Two skiers

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[blueeyes]

Two snowboarders.

I think we all matched up well skill wise. Took any gate that was open and headed into the trees.

Loved it absolutely loved it!

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[blueeyes]

After sitting in the parking lot for an hour I got to experience the RED DRAGON for an hour and then another 2 1/2 hours to get back to Ogden. Had to go the long way because 89 was closed.

What a PHENOMENAL day!

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[accadacca]

Glad to hear that you had a great day. Its hard not to up there. As mentioned, world class stuff for sure up little cottonwood.

I wish I was going up in the morning...another epic day.

[blueeyes]

I skied so hard yesterday I ended up with a blister on my calf from the boot lining! I have never had that happen. I even cranked my boots down more than usual.

Wish I was up again today. I think we will go for our last time tomorrow to Snowbasin or Powder Mountain.
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[stefan]

Not allowing snowboarding is segregation no matter how you look at it.

segregation has heavy racial connotations and comparing what you can or cannot wear on your feet when riding alta lifts to racial/ethnic background is stunningly over-the-top. perhaps a different, less-racially-charged word would be more appropriate, but my guess is that you're intentionally trying to be provocative.

If this is not the case, then why not let snowboards ride at Alta?

because from its inception, alta ski area has been about skiing. their mission is to continue to maintain that. it's pretty simple really

By causing separation, you are causing a rift between skiers and riders.

sounds more like the rift comes from a sense of "entitlement" which may be entirely unjustified.

There are only 3 resorts left in the world that do not allow snowboarding. Notice I put, "do not allow snowboarding."

Mad River Glen
Deer Valley
Alta

The rest of the world has pulled their head out and realized that snowboarding is growing faster than skiing.

the three you mention seem to be doing okay in spite of the growth in snowboarding. are you suggesting all businesses should follow the same business model?

You Alta fools are going to have to get over your elitist ski ideals.

like everyone in this world, you're entitled to your opinion, however, just because you think and call it elitism doesn't mean that it is.

Snowboarding is here to stay, we are not going to just go away.

.... and this is relevant because ....

If there was only skiing, then Alta's policy would make sense

uhh no. alta's policy makes sense irrespective of the existence snowboarders, unless their policy was/becomes completely unsustainable. again that sense of entitlement seems to be surfacing here.

But there is not only skiing, so unless you have two boards on your feet, you cant ride there?

alta is for skiers means that 'alta ski lifts co.' is for and all about skiing.

Segregation is telling a certain part of the population that they cannot do something, which is exactly what Alta is doing.

alta is not telling you that you cannot or should not snowboard (as you have pointed out there are many places where you can ride lifts and use your snowboard). they simply are maintaining the area/lifts as a ski area.

Now if this was private land, I would probably not care that much. But since Alta leases their terrain from the Forest Service, which makes it public lands,

then maybe you need to take this up with the federal gov't.

then having segregation in place is a violation of the US Constitution and very illegal at best.

as far as I can tell it's not. but maybe you can try to sue them over it to see if it is (or try to prove that it is). my guess is your case would be dismissed immediately.

I probably spend more time in Little Cottonwood Canyon than most of the people who ski Alta, year round.

and this is relevant because ....

I don't like public lands of any kind made off limits,

with respect to development, I certainly do. I think wilderness is a great land designation which has protected some of the most wonderful areas in the wasatch.

Still bullshit on Public Lands if you ask me.

actually it's a mix of public (mostly) and private lands. and alta ski lifts co. is a privately held company.

I think it's the healthy right of every american to agree or disagree with the policies and practices of companies (whether it be on public or private land) and I think it would be unfortunate if we didn't engage in that right. what I think is unfortunate here is the escalation of animosity over alta's policy.

personally i find the expansion of ski areas/development in the wasatch to be a far more pressing issue than whether or not 2 of 14 ski areas in utah allow snowboarders. but we all have our own priorities

[Dr. Nebz]

actually it's a mix of public (mostly) and private lands. and alta ski lifts co. is a privately held company.

I think it's the healthy right of every american to agree or disagree with the policies and practices of companies (whether it be on public or private land) and I think it would be unfortunate if we didn't. what I think is unfortunate here is the escalation of animosity over alta's policy.

personally i find the expansion of ski areas/development in the wasatch to be a far more pressing issue than whether or not 2 of 14 ski areas in utah allow snowboarders. but we all have our own priorities

Wrong. Alta owns its lifts, but the land those lifts are on are leased by the Forest Service. If they owned the land like Dick Bass, owner of Snowbird does, then they could operate beyond their closing date in April. But since this is a lease, they have to honor it and close in April per their lease with the Forest Service. So, regardless of what you think, that is the facts. You don't spend much time up the LCC after ski season do you?

I know a lot more about Alta than you think. Ever hear of John Cahill? He owns the Alta Peruvian Lodge. His sons run it now. My Mom after her divorce dated John for quite a few years. I spent a lot of time up there as a kid.

The owners of Alta hate snowboarding, they think it is a fad, some trend that will go away. Sorry to rain on their parade, but even die hard ski companies are buying snowboarding companies because skiing can't make it without snowboarding. Hell, the Winter Olympics was on the way to the shitter until snowboard half pipe was introduced. Now it is the most watched event at the Winter Olympics.

Segregation is not just racial mind you. It comes in all forms, and is pretty lame in this day and age.

I know for a fact that Alta lost money last season. Deer Valley is having a hard time getting tourists to book there because their kids have to go to PC or the Canyons to snowboard. This is a loss of revenue for them. So for them to be doing so well, losing money is not profitable from a bottom line point of view.

Stefan, you can think what you like, but none of what you posted above solves the problem. It just makes lame ass excuses for it.

[stefan]

Wrong Alta owns its lifts, but the land those lifts are on are leased by the Forest Service.

as I said most of the land in the ski area is public but there are patches of private land within the ski area (see map below)

You don't spend much time up the LCC after ski season do you?

pretty high-handed of you to presume I wouldn't. little cottonwood is one of my favorite places on the planet -- anytime of year -- if you really must know.

I know for a fact that Alta lost money last season.

not surprising given the state of the economy. how about consider a ten year period to make your point. year-to-year changes can occur for a variety of reasons

Stefan, you can think what you like, but none of what you posted above solves the problem. It just makes lame ass excuses for it.

interesting ... none of what I posted was intended to solve your problem nor can any part of it be considered an "excuse." the problem is that alta ski lifts co. has the right to decide if snowboards are allowed or not (unless the feds say no)

c'est la vie bro.

[Dr. Nebz]

interesting ... none of what I posted was intended to solve your problem nor can any part of it be considered an "excuse." the problem is that alta ski lifts co. has the right to decide if snowboards are allowed or not (unless the feds say no)

The problem is that the US Constitution is law and what is going on at Alta is a violation of that law. Public Lands are just that- public. Telling a certain sect of the public that they cannot use public lands equally because of what is strapped to their feet is a violation of the Constitution on various counts. It makes about as much sense as f***ing for virginity.

If you spend so much time up the LCC year round, then you should understand the public access issue better than you have put up an argument here for.

Alta has been struggling financially for quite some time. I have a ton of friends that used to ski Alta, but they cannot stand the kooks who go there, and they think that the segregation of the snow sports is stupid, and so they would rather ski the Bird, because we accept everyone, no matter what is under your feet.

Those "private lands" you speak of are only mineral rights and mining claims. And either Dick Bass or the Forest Service owns those, Alta owns none of them. Hence once again, since you seem to have such a hard time reading, Alta has to close each year at a designated date by contract with the Forest Service. And the only reason Alta is ski only is because they were grandfathered under the new statute that was put out by the Forest Service a few years back. Any new development up there would have to allow snowboarders under policy by the Forest Service. That is why you have not seen any expansion at Alta in some time.

Stefan, you can continue to make excuses over and over again on why Alta has to feel special and be ski only. But you cannot continue to bullshit your way with this guy, I am far too educated and aware of the situation going on up there. You are not going to change my mind that Alta and its ownership are not a bunch of snow nazi douche bags that want to feel special, and who cannot change with the times. Everything changes in this world, and nothing remains without change.

Here is a video for your entertainment. Watch @ 1:47 of this video, then you get how retarded Alta is. Happy New Year Stefan!!!

[accadacca]

I think the pot is already stirred so I won't worry about stirring it some more.

Would the bird let me take my sled up there? Thinking about buying one of these: http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=3417661 and hitting the tram.

We could do a cool video and say, "poached" biznatch!

[blueeyes]

Mental note to self ..... don't ever ask Snowbird or Alta anyone? Hahaha

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[stefan]

Happy New Year Stefan!!!

all the best and a happy new year to you!

[Dr. Nebz]

I think the pot is already stirred so I won't worry about stirring it some more.

Would the bird let me take my sled up there? Thinking about buying one of these: http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=3417661 and hitting the tram.

We could do a cool video and say, "poached" biznatch!

I am down to poach anywhere as long as we are on these babies:

http://www.airboard.com/flash.htm

[Brian in SLC]

Here is a video for your entertainment. Watch @ 1:47 of this video, then you get how retarded Alta is.

Geez, what did I miss? They ride in from the slack country and down to the summer road, and, that's poaching Alta?

Not even a decent try. If they came in from the 'Bird maybe, and, skied Baldy chutes or at least the shoulder.

Pretty weak and the only thing retarded is how someone tries to sell that as "poaching" Alta.

"We" get Alta back in mid April. That's everyone. And, I'll bet, in the off season, there's just as many boarders there as skiers. And way more boarders "huckin' their meat" (at least I think that's what the kids say) behind Alta up Grizzly Gulch. Spectacular wrecks.

Good glisse to you all in the new year!

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC
(backcountry snob! Ha ha)

[stefan]

dr. nebz, there are a lot of rumors and misinformation running around ski areas. i've found in the past it's part of the culture. now that my extended new years is over (sadly) i wanted to respond to some of what you said.

i would just like to say that, despite our disagreements here, i appreciate your passion for snow and your many contributions to the forum.

If they owned the land like Dick Bass owner of Snowbird does

this is a falsehood which i've heard many times but is not true. dick bass owns a portion of the land including much of mineral basin and large tracts of land elsewhere, but a significant portion of the land within snowbird's boundary is forest service and not owned by dick bass. i would urge you to look into this further for yourself.

, then they could operate beyond their closing date in April. But since this is a lease, they have to honor it and close in April per their lease with the Forest Service. So, regardless of what you think, that is the facts.

Alta has to close each year at a designated date by contract with the Forest Service.

ahh yes another false rumor i've heard propagated for a long time. this is simply not true. alta could stay open longer if it wanted and the forest service allowed it (like snowbird) due to snow conditions and other permit related stuff, but they specifically choose not to. it should be clear to you that most locals choose not to ski much after march and the snow is quite a bit more variable. but they could stay open longer if they wanted to (conditions permitting).

Those "private lands" you speak of are only mineral rights and mining claims. And either Dick Bass or the Forest Service owns those. Alta owns none of them. Hence once again, since you seem to have such a hard time reading.

perhaps it is you who has the hard time reading. i never specified who owns the land, simply that it was a mix of public (mostly) and private land. but i can tell you one thing, dick bass and the forest service does not own "all" the private land within the boundary of alta ski area as you suggest.

And the only reason Alta is ski only is because they were grandfathered under the new statute that was put out by the Forest Service a few years back. Any new development up there would have to allow snowboarders under policy by the Forest Service.

as far as i understand there is no such statue. i know people have tried to get the forest service to establish such. please feel free to provide a document from the forest service indicating this if you actually know of one.

i do know alta has expansion on the table (which I'm very concerned about) but have other issues (nonsnowboarding-related) regarding this. alta has a special use permit (like snowbird) which allows them to maintain a ski-only operation. this has been challenged in the past and the forest service determined that limiting what types of activity occur is not considered discrimination and is up to the discretion of the permit holder. my understanding is that this is still the case and there has been no change in national forest service policy. if you believe you have any hard information/documentation regarding a change in policy, i would certainly be very interested in seeing it.

Stefan, you can continue to make excuses over and over again on why Alta has to feel special and be ski only.

well, to quote you, it seems you have a hard time reading. as i indicated above, i have not made any excuses for alta. all i have basically said is that they don't actually need an excuse to do what they do, they are well within their right to simply do it, unless the forest service changes it's policy regarding special use permits (which i don't believe they have)

I am far too educated and aware of the situation going on up there.

i'm sure you are but it's apparent to me that you probably wanna check some of those "facts" you brazenly toss around.

Alta has been struggling financially for quite some time.

can't say i know much about alta's finances, but i can tell you their skier days are doing pretty well and are pretty competitive with snowbird's. i saw a table on this a few years back from the forest service. alta's modifications/improvements to the ski lifts/lodges has also made the ski area more attractive to improve visitation. this was one of the most requested things in surveys. they've also dramatically increased the price of tickets over the past decade so i imagine this has brought more revenue. but since i've never been concerned with alta's finances, i don't really know.

[Garbanzo]

Hey Blue Eyes, I like the idea of the mental note. I would make a mental note as well, but have nothing to write on. Hope you had fun on the slopes. Looking forward to Mtn Biking. Less anger on that post.

[Dr. Nebz]

Stefan, where do you get your information from? I am only going to address what is relevant, because some of the above is opinion, and not presenting facts.

1. The Albion Basin is managed by the US Forest Service. It is strictly stated in their land lease agreement that they close in April, so the Basin can return to a somewhat natural state for summer guests to arrive. It is the same reason Brighton and Solitude have to stop operating public lift service on designated dates. Snowbird owns the mining claims in Peruvian Gulch (hence the ability to build a tunnel to Mineral), Pretty much all of Mineral Basin above Pittsburg Lake, Mary Ellen Gulch, which is the other side of American Fork Twins, and some of the land in Gad Valley. As far as property ownership in Little Cottonwood Canyon, Dick Bass is the largest Property owner up there. The Cahill's are probably second in line in that designation of private property rights with the ability to develop.

2. The only way resorts like Alta, Mad River Glen, Deer Valley and formerly Taos could operate on public lands and not let all forms of designated winter sports gear was to grandfather certain resorts which allow them to operate Ski only. This was a move to preserve the ski only opportunity you Alta folks get to enjoy. So if you do not like the Forest Service, you should thank them for allowing this to continue. There was a recent article in the Tribune about the Forest Service wanting Alta to put a lift up Flagstaff, which not only would cut off backcountry access over there, but that Alta would have to allow Snowboarders because it is expansion into a new area. UDOT wants the lift so Alta would have to do the avy control work over there and Hells Gate. Alta is fighting it because of several obvious business impact reasons.

3. I never said Dick Bass owned anything in Alta's Ski Area Boundary. So it is you who have the problem reading and comprehending that. I only have mentioned what he does own, this is something that you can obtain the information from at the U of U library. Copies of all of this information is there for your disposal.

4. I have friends who work at Alta. Lodging, lift tickets and season pass holders are down about 20-30% depending to which of the last 5 seasons you are referring to. Skiing is simply not growing fast enough to keep up with the inflating cost of operation of ski resorts. Ridership has saved more resorts than Skiing has. Skiers should be thankful for what Snowboarding has done for winter sports. It gets all walks of life up to the lifts, Skiers and Snowboarders who want to slide on the snow. This is the problem with the mentality that Alta folk convey. And making something ski only says enough without having to say anything. If Skiers at Alta liked snowboarding, then this would not be an issue. But they hate Snowboarding, and I over hear Alta beaters all the time who come over in Mineral Basin talk shit on us Snowboarders when they can't even Ski.

A wise man once said: "It is best not to hate anything in life, because the more you hate something, the more you are going to be forced to deal with that thing that you hate."

I am not going to argue with you anymore about this, it has been an interesting exchange. I hope you and other skiers at Alta learn to adapt to change, which everything on this planet has to do in order to survive and progress. I wish you all the best.

[uzi66]

I quit caring about alta a long time ago. It's there mistake, if they don't want my money than that's just fine. I don't really even want to go there once they realize the gigantic mistake they've made and decide to allow riding. What there losing is youth, which equals future. I would not even suggest the place to a skier because I can not honestly say how it is. Enjoy your'e mamma's boys and 40+ ski resort while it lasts.

[blueeyes]

What there losing is youth, which equals future.

I am a skier and will never be a boarder (I have tried and just not my thing) and the idea of skiing somewhere where "nothing has changed" is appealing, but you have an excellent point. Sadly more kids pick up snowboarding and never bother with skiing. It is only us die hard ski parents that make their kids learn to ski before snowboarding, and when your a young and in school who skis anymore? If you are a mixed family of boarders and skiers you can't go to those exclusive resorts as you leave out part of your family or if you have friends you ride with.

The ski only resorts have their niche, so would a snowboard only resort if they existed. But some day I would think the exclusive resorts will update.

By the way the one thing I do love that attribute to snowboarders is the ski/snowboard clothing! So much better fit and design now. That was definitely one thing that needed a major overhaul.

40+ ski resort

guess I better wait a few more years before I go.