Trapping

[mattandersao]

So what you're saying is that this text that you've copied from the Mule Deer Management plan (which by the way has no material dated sooner than 2008) IS the "alleged decade long extensive research." Sorry but you're gonna have to do better than that...

"This plan was approved on December 4, 2008 and will be in effect for five years from this date" Thus the plan will be in effect until Dec 4, 2013.

I guess maybe my previous post was misunderstood. I read MY TPIMPS posting he didnt provide any source just the DWR decade long research. I questioned what he said and did some quick research. I found, and have no idea if what I found is the research he referred to, was theopposite of some of his claims.
1. Mule deer are not as unique as he made it sound.
2. He stated quite clearly that predators are the #1 cause of herd degredation which according to the current Mule Deer Managment plan is not true.

Maybe there is another DWR source saying different but...

[ilanimaka]

While I do agree that sources are vital when having one of these lovely debates, I just wanted to make sure you weren't presenting a nickel & calling it a dime.



And for the record, so long as the back and forth stays cordial & away from name-calling, I'm very much enjoying this.

[Brian in SLC]

Cite more recent research?

Its an interesting document. I moved here in '85 and couldn't believe the number of folks that went out on the deer hunt. Kinda turned me off to the whole thing, but, admittedly, I also got too busy and it was hard to find time. Was successful on a high country buck hunt, though, so, nice way to call 'er good (for now, at least).

My bet is a big hitter affecting deer herds is both loss and degradation of habitat (yeah, I know, parrotting that report). But, it makes sense. Wasn't that many years ago that there were gaps in urbania down the I-15 corridor. Now, its houses and strip malls.

The deer population charts show the big population dives tracking the drought years and the tough winters.

There's always been a boom and bust relationship between prey and predators. Cyclic. I guess stronger elk herds may not be helping.

Hunters and the "environment" have always been strange bedfellows. Makes sense of you take care of the habitat, the game will follow. But, folks don't want to hear that they can't ATV, hike, 4wd in areas that are critical to game. Or, that they need more open space instead of a new neighborhood or ten. Look at how much winter range has been lost. Crazy.

Rough math, here, but...300k deer in the state? 250k hunters want permits? They issue, what, 90k permits? Buck to doe ratio is what? Doesn't take too many years of hunting pressure, drought, tough winters, and, natural (and unnatural like cars!) predators to really hit he deer herds hard.

Its funny that the underlying debate on the trapping issue isn't really about trapping, per se. Its about the mule deer hunt. A hunt that is a huge part of Utah legacy. Makes it more of a political football than just the debate itself.

[Rev. Coyote]

Well, Mister Beech, since you asked, I believe trapping to be ****ed up, cowardly, and trashy.

Merry Christmas!

[canyoncaver]

Traps are just another coward's tool used by the small penis crowd. If you want to kill something, go shoot or stab it like a real man. Poisons and traps are for the weak.

It has been proven that coyote populations INCREASE under heavy "predator control." Coyote litters increase in number of pups when they are being hunted. 100 years of coyote "control" measures have resulted in an explosion in coyote population. They are nature's great adaptor. Probably second only to man in their ability to adapt to different habitats.

Coyotes are expanding in range and number because they are filling the ecological niche that was once held by the wolf. As wolves were eradicated across the landscape, the coyote moved in. This is why you see coyotes in places that they never lived historically, like downtown New York and Boston. I'm not suggesting that we all live next door to wolf packs, just that the abundance of coyotes has been created and abetted by human practices. In Yellowstone, since the re-introduction of the wolf in 1995, coyote numbers have collapsed. They are once again 2nd dog instead of top dog. In any ecosystem that the wolf has been extirpated from, the coyote is top dog.

The idea that deer populations are suffering from any form of natural predator is preposterous. This kind of logic has been refuted over and over by real world situations. Study what happened on the Kaibab plateau when it was subjected to "predator control." Predators make for healthy prey and healthy ecosystems. There are more deer in Utah now than there ever has been. We should not try to encourage more just so there will be more for us to shoot. To do so is irresponsible wildlife management. Too many deer means too many weak, sick deer. Keep the predators and prey in balance. Keep the deer healthy. You might not get to shoot as many, but the ones you get will be that much more of a prize.

[MY T PIMP]

My source comes from the Divison RAC meeting I attended on NOV-9 for the Northern Region. Mule Deer happened to be the main topic. I formed my post based on the various biologist and speakers.

There is a saying about coyotes; "when the world ends and the last human has died, there will be a coyote chewing on the body"

There's a new signature for the good Reverend

[ilanimaka]

Traps are just another coward's tool used by the small penis crowd. If you want to kill something, go shoot or stab it like a real man. Poisons and traps are for the weak.

Although I would REALLY like to respond to this, I'd prefer to keep this "discussion" out of the Rubbish Bin. but congrats on being the first to resort to name calling. Big man on campus, huh...

It has been proven that coyote populations INCREASE under heavy "predator control." Coyote litters increase in number of pups when they are being hunted. 100 years of coyote "control" measures have resulted in an explosion in coyote population. They are nature's great adaptor.

So when things get harder for them they adapt by having more pups per litter... Huh... I would REALLY like to see your documentation on that little tidbit.

Coyotes are expanding in range and number because they are filling the ecological niche that was once held by the wolf. As wolves were eradicated across the landscape, the coyote moved in. This is why you see coyotes in places that they never lived historically, like downtown New York and Boston. I'm not suggesting that we all live next door to wolf packs, just that the abundance of coyotes has been created and abetted by human practices. In Yellowstone, since the re-introduction of the wolf in 1995, coyote numbers have collapsed. They are once again 2nd dog instead of top dog. In any ecosystem that the wolf has been extirpated from, the coyote is top dog.

AHA! Now THERE'S some facts I've actually seen documents on. Wolves kill yotes, so yote numbers go down (wolves are also MUCH better hunters than we are). Yotes kill fox so their numbers are down. But wait! If the wolves are hunting the yotes, then why aren't their litters increasing to compensate for it? Hmmm... This boat doth leak, methinks...

You might not get to shoot as many, but the ones you get will be that much more of a prize.

Really couldn't give a rats patute for antlers. I'm in it for the meat.

[REDFOX]

I have spoke with and hunted with a few lion hunter guides that focus their business mostly in Utah for the past 20 years. They all have said that an adult mountain lion will kill an average of 1 deer per a week. They mostly kill large solitary bucks. They are easier to stalk while they are alone. While it has been said already, there are many factors that can cause a decline in herd quality and quantity, It is my opinion that if trophy bucks are dyeing from predation or old age, this will have an impact on the growth and quality of herds everywhere. I think that this is a complicated matter with no easy quick fixes.

[canyoncaver]

Although I would REALLY like to respond to this, I'd prefer to keep this "discussion" out of the Rubbish Bin. but congrats on being the first to resort to name calling. Big man on campus, huh...

Sorry, I wasn't necessarily calling you a name, just providing my general perspective on those with the "deer are for us," "predators are bad," mindset. Anyone who thinks it is okay to let an animal suffer in a leg trap for 7 days deserves a bit of a smackdown. In other people's words it is in fact "trashy," and "F-ed up." I don't know you, but if you fall into these categories, then so be it.

So when things get harder for them they adapt by having more pups per litter... Huh... I would REALLY like to see your documentation on that little tidbit.

I looked it up, but it would be better if you did the research for yourself. Just google "compensatory reproduction / coyotes." Then you will see the wealth of papers, articles, and informational brochures from all over the U.S. and Canada that describe this phenomenon in coyotes and many other animals.

AHA! Now THERE'S some facts I've actually seen documents on. Wolves kill yotes, so yote numbers go down (wolves are also MUCH better hunters than we are). Yotes kill fox so their numbers are down. But wait! If the wolves are hunting the yotes, then why aren't their litters increasing to compensate for it? Hmmm... This boat doth leak, methinks...

Here's the difference. Wolves kill the coyotes they can catch. This includes especially coyote pups in a den. Human coyote control focuses on adult animals. So in our case, the compensatory litter of 15 pups has already grown up and we have to find and kill all of them. Hence, an overall decrease due to wolf predation, and an overall increase due to human predation.

Really couldn't give a rats patute for antlers. I'm in it for the meat.

Sorry if the word "prize" confused you into thinking I was only talking about trophy hunts. That's not what I meant. I should have used a different word. In a healthy deer herd, the meat will also be more of a prize. It will be healthier, not as stressed by shortage of food, and there will be more meat per animal. Healthy herds translate into better meat and antlers.

[canyoncaver]

Here's the decision for now anyway....

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=13884663

[ilanimaka]

I'm glad they shot down this change. As much as I dislike coyotes, I wouldn't want to see any suffer. Mother Nature is a b!tch as it is.

On a side note, the comment by Bob Bristler about re-intorducing wolves to Utah is the epitomy of stupid. Sure, let's decimate the coyote population by bringing in wolves, even though wolves are FAR more proficient hunters & would cause more damage to the local deer/elk herds in a year than the coyotes could in several.

What a moron...

[Sombeech]

See how to embed KSL Videos in your posts

[Rev. Coyote]

MY T PIMP -- That's a good one!!

[Rev. Coyote]

Beech -- In that video, I'd say the best point goes to the inadvertent trapping of unintended quarry. Some of us run dogs (more of a southern thing I guess, but I know of one guy running redbones in Utah), and would hate to see a good dog crippled or killed by someone's trap. (If it were my dog, I'd wait for the trapper to come around...just sayin.)

[LB_Design]

i done alot of trapping growing up, mostly snaring. Good times and good way to get out there in the winter months.