NPS Morning Report 9/21/10 Subway no jumping

[Cirrus2000]

I think you will find, with some reflection, that not doing dumbass things in the first place is a better, long-term strategy.

T as

[jman]

Yup that's a classic one.

[ratagonia]

If you jump down a drop and hurt your ankle (being dumb), you need to man up and somehow find a way to get out on your own power or with group assistance (be tough).

If you hurt your ankle and need a chopper to get out, you might want to reconsider your backcountry preparedness.

I was with a guy who had a very unlucky experience in the Subway when it was in high water - he went over one of the little water slide features and had his leg angled at just the right angle to catch a ledge or something under the water and ended up breaking his left leg. So arguably, what we did on the little water slides was dumb (as evidenced by his breaking his leg).

It made the hike out take a bit longer and he had a really hard time using the clutch on the drive home that night. We never even thought about calling for SAR. Had he not been able to walk on his own... we were prepared to assist him the whole way out and would have carried his ass out the entire exit.

Macho posturing aside, it helps to have a good understanding of the medicine involved in order to make a wise decision here. The question is whether self-evacuation will result in long-term injury and disability, and can those effects be mitigated by effective first aid? If you "man-up" and walk out on it, and the result is a permanent injury, then you did not make the wise choice. But, if you sprain your ankle and can successfully splint and wrap it and walk out with no ill effects other than pain, then the helicopter ride and spending 10K of the public's money is an immoral choice. Of course, having the first aid/medical training to make those decisions wisely must take place before the incident.

A friend of ours wrecked his knee in a canyon, was able to get out (because there was not much choice, this not being Zion and being in a very technical canyon, and because Mr. Corbin was there), waited a day on the Beach to see if it would get better (no), then drove out and flew home (East Coast) before scheduling an appointment with his doctor. Threw a clot the next day and nearly died - shoulda seen a doc before flying home. Bad choice!

Tom

[Bubbles]

Tom is right. It's one thing to suck it up for a headache, laceration, dislocation, mild sprain, etc. A fracture can be quite serious, particularly with bones, nerve endings, blood vessels, etc down there. Permanent damage is a very real possibility, and its not worth it for a relatively simple, at-hand rescue like The Subway IF the injury is serious enough to warrant it. Err on the side of caution.

Anyone who spends significant time in the backcountry should strongly consider getting medical training.

[jman]

Anyone who spends significant time in the backcountry should strongly consider getting medical training.

Strongly agree with this. When I did BLM firefighting in St George a few years ago, I was also the medic (EMT-I) for our squad and then on most major fires. I carried a complex but light 5lb medical supply kit that had every thing that helped some grim situations, where a basic firstaid kit wouldn't cut it.

Epinephrine pens, learning the new CPR method, nitro (for heart attacks), charcoal (for poisoning-IE, eating really spoiled food, took too many pills, eat poisonous berries, etc.) and even narcan (to take away the effects of a OD), even a c-spine would make you the most important/helpful person in the group. Those would probably be unneeded by a lot of folks...but you just don't know when you might need it) you, yourself, your group, another group, bystanders, etc.

And those were just some of the meds and supplies it would contain. So helpful...

[mmac]

Legality and liability aside, I completely agree with jman. (most people aren't allowed to carry/administer Epi, Narcan, or Nitro)

The right training and a good medkit can save your ass!

[jman]

(most people aren't allowed to carry/administer Epi, Narcan, or Nitro)

The right training and a good medkit can save your ass!

Sorry, that's what I was implying - that people SHOULD get advanced medical training if they can. Even EMT if they can afford it and have the spare time (through schooling it was only $100 for the tuition for the class...8 credits too!)

Not trying to say that people should blackmarket nitro and epi pens. haha.

[Bubbles]

Legality and liability aside, I completely agree with jman. (most people aren't allowed to carry/administer Epi, Narcan, or Nitro)

Lets not forget Diamox!

[mmac]

Haha, I meant no offense :)

Just wanted to be clear that some of the stuff you were talking about should only be attempted with proper training and or a prescription.

You scored on your EMT class! Mine cost like $800 and my WFR was another $450

I'm a strong believer in being prepared. I carry a pretty big medkit through the canyons, and thank god I've never actually needed to use it. It's just reassuring to have it available.

[Cirrus2000]

I'm a strong believer in being prepared. I carry a pretty big medkit through the canyons, and thank god I've never actually needed to use it. It's just reassuring to have it available.

Reassuring for your partners, too!

[Ryebrye]

Macho posturing aside, it helps to have a good understanding of the medicine involved in order to make a wise decision here. The question is whether self-evacuation will result in long-term injury and disability, and can those effects be mitigated by effective first aid? If you "man-up" and walk out on it, and the result is a permanent injury, then you did not make the wise choice. But, if you sprain your ankle and can successfully splint and wrap it and walk out with no ill effects other than pain, then the helicopter ride and spending 10K of the public's money is an immoral choice. Of course, having the first aid/medical training to make those decisions wisely must take place before the incident.

A friend of ours wrecked his knee in a canyon, was able to get out (because there was not much choice, this not being Zion and being in a very technical canyon, and because Mr. Corbin was there), waited a day on the Beach to see if it would get better (no), then drove out and flew home (East Coast) before scheduling an appointment with his doctor. Threw a clot the next day and nearly died - shoulda seen a doc before flying home. Bad choice!

Tom

Yeah, I agree with this point.

I'm also a bit impatient. Sure, Zion SAR is fast - but we're still talking about waiting around for some time in the order of at least a few hours... Sure, it would suck to walk around or have people carry you out of the canyon, but how much worse would it suck to spend a few hours just sitting in a spot of the Subway waiting for a chopper? I bet you could get out of the canyon faster if you did it on your own than waiting for a chopper... (in this specific case - not in all cases, of course)

The point about WFR and EMT training are good... WFR is on my list of things to do someday, but being selfish I think I'd prefer someone else in my group get the training! ;) (Kind of like how avalanche poles and a shovel always make a great christmas gift for your backcountry skiing buddies)

[ratagonia]

Yeah, I agree with this point.

I'm also a bit impatient. Sure, Zion SAR is fast - but we're still talking about waiting around for some time in the order of at least a few hours... Sure, it would suck to walk around or have people carry you out of the canyon, but how much worse would it suck to spend a few hours just sitting in a spot of the Subway waiting for a chopper? I bet you could get out of the canyon faster if you did it on your own than waiting for a chopper... (in this specific case - not in all cases, of course)

The point about WFR and EMT training are good... WFR is on my list of things to do someday, but being selfish I think I'd prefer someone else in my group get the training! ;) (Kind of like how avalanche poles and a shovel always make a great christmas gift for your backcountry skiing buddies)

From accident to being out at the end of the Subway is generally 24 hours. So, yeah, hobbling out yourself is going to be considerably faster.

I've heard of several groups that, after sitting around for a few hours, decided it was a good idea to try hobbling out rather than wait EVEN LONGER!

They use the chopper there in the Subway because doing a litter carry out from the end of the Subway would take 12 people x 24 hours (or so). Lotta rough terrain there.

Tom

[mmac]

The point about WFR and EMT training are good... WFR is on my list of things to do someday, but being selfish I think I'd prefer someone else in my group get the training! ;) (Kind of like how avalanche poles and a shovel always make a great christmas gift for your backcountry skiing buddies)

I would rather have everyone in my party be WFA certified (Wilderness First Aid - takes less than a day for the training, and is basically first aid with some extra wilderness considerations thrown in for good measure). In the "what-if" scenario where you lose your only medically trained person to an injury, it could suck just as much as not having anyone with training along at all...

Spread out your proverbial eggs, think about your partner's well-being (just slightly after your own) and go get some training!

[ibenick]

I would rather have everyone in my party be WFA certified (Wilderness First Aid - takes less than a day for the training, and is basically first aid with some extra wilderness considerations thrown in for good measure). In the "what-if" scenario where you lose your only medically trained person to an injury, it could suck just as much as not having anyone with training along at all...

Spread out your proverbial eggs, think about your partner's well-being (just slightly after your own) and go get some training!

Hey Mike. That WFA certification sounds like a pretty worthwhile thing to do. I looked around and all I found up here in SLC was a 3-day course for $175. Any idea where I'd find the day or less version?

This is what I found:
http://www.wmutah.org/wfacourses.html

[mmac]

Most WFA classes include CPR/AED, First Aid, and some Wilderness training (common injuries/illnesses, timeline considerations, environmental issues, evacuation, etc).

If you've already got CPR and or First Aid you could probably talk to the instructor and just take the wilderness part (which is what I did to refresh an expired cert a while back), or find a more specialized course. If you need, or are interested in all of the training, 2-3 days doesn't really seem out of the realm to me. They run a lot of mock-scenarios which are great confidence builders and lend a sense of practicality to the training. For me, these always pushed the points home better than just reading through the material, and I would consider them one of the most valuable parts of the course.

The University in Flagstaff offers courses that are open to the public (no tuition), and I'd assume that most do a similar sort of thing. I'm currently re-certifying my WFR in a night class twice a week. The class goes for another 3 weeks, and I've been in it for about 3 so far.

NOLS is probably the best place to look for classes based on curriculum and acceptance of the certification by other organizations. If you don't care about that, just look for something locally - if you put together a group of people who are interested, they'll probably work around your schedule ;)