Lets talk about "keepers" and how to conquer them.

[oval]

That's ok Tom, you are entitled to your opinion. In my experiences, climbers move much faster. Maybe you had an experience with a cocky climber or something, or maybe you just couldn't keep up and didn't enjoy it. Like I said, though, when you have a group of climbers at the same level, you can move much faster.

A party is only a fast are their slowest person.

[Iceaxe]

In my experiences, climbers move much faster.

x2

But... As a general rule.... I think this has more to do with age and athletic ability than anything else. Skilled climbers have a tendency to be young and athletic, while skilled canyoneers are made up of a larger cross section of the general public.

[ratagonia]

That's ok Tom, you are entitled to your opinion. In my experiences, climbers move much faster. Maybe you had an experience with a cocky climber or something, or maybe you just couldn't keep up and didn't enjoy it. Like I said, though, when you have a group of climbers at the same level, you can move much faster.

A party is only as fast are their slowest person.

The Trick, William Potter, is in not minding that there is someone slower than you...

Like I said, though, when you have a group of climbers at the same level, you can move much faster.

Isn't that a Syllogism, Oval? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism Yes, a crew of very competent canyon-type climbers will move through a canyon faster than a crew of pudgy, stiff, inflexible grey-beards. Well, duh! Spidey, Landon and AaRAM will outpace Tom, Ram and Jenny. Except that we have trained those three well to courteously wait for us, help us at the hard parts, carry the ropes, cook the meals (uh, well, maybe not) and work with us as a team so we can all have a good time, TOGETHER.

A party is only as fast are their slowest person.

Ah, yes, Grasshopper. You touch on one of my tenets of canyon leadership - "The person who is slowest in the party is the leader". Ponder that koan for awhile...

A party is only as fast are their slowest person.

OK, not the best re-quotation, above... The trick, William Oval, is in using the strength of the stronger members of the party to make the weaker members stronger. If each person does the canyon on their own, then, yes, there will be a slowest person. If you go through as a team, you are likely to go through swifter than the slowest member of the party could negotiate the canyon by themselves. Perhaps you have heard of this concept, Oval - "Teamwork"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teamwork

Just to be clear, I have had MANY experiences with cocky climbers who's skills could be useful to the group, if they cared to make their skills a group asset. Perhaps as a cocky climber, your perception is somewhat different. I've found it takes some time spent in the canyons not only for rock climbers to figure out how to climb through these things, but also in how to work as a member of the team and contribute their strength to the overall strength of the team

Each canyoneer has their own goals for their canyon days. Rushing through the canyon swiftly? Been there, done that. http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0609jihad/index.htm Fun to do once in a while, but not as a focus of my canyon experience, on a regular basis.

On my trips, there is no "slowest person". Seems like we all start at the same time and end at the same time - how is their a slowest person? We are not counting coup... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup

Tom "moses:

[CarpeyBiggs]

hey tom, maybe you should get out with some climbers every now and again! you keeping company with the AARP again?

[CarpeyBiggs]

climbing skills are useful in about 1 percent of all canyon related obstacles. the two just don't really relate all that much.

most important thing for a fast group is a - fitness, b - teamwork, c - anchor building skills, d - strongbacks.

climbing comes in handy if you need to get out of a pothole, or maybe a spicy downclimbing move. but those, in general, make up very little of the actual canyons, except in a few instances. climbers aren't fast because they are climbers. in fact i've met plenty of slow climbers in canyons. but, most climbers are already fit, strong, and can learn anchor building skills quickly, so yes, they do tend to move efficiently.

but climbing is hardly prerequisite to efficiency. and often times, it can makes things go slower, since problems tend to be analyzed in a climbing mentality, instead of a canyon mentality.

[SLCmntjunkie]

IMHO, poor rigging and leadership skills will slow a group down a lot more than mediocre/bad climbers. Having good climbers can help speed a group up but not as much as efficient rigging and problem solving. I suppose it depends on the canyon though.

[Brian in SLC]

climbing skills are useful in about 1 percent of all canyon related obstacles. the two just don't really relate all that much.

most important thing for a fast group is a - fitness, b - teamwork, c - anchor building skills, d - strongbacks.

Some interesting points.

"Good" climbers are into teamwork and tend to have pretty good anchor building skills. They also tend to have fairly good rigging skills.

So much criteria...and so many "issues", that its a hard thing to generalize.

If you had criteria, difficulty of descent, time, and, style, I could probably list examples of all three that are dominated by folks with a fair bit of climbing experience.

Time? Kolob/Imlay/Heaps in a day? Jared, Ryan and Buzz. Very strong climbers. Not as much canyon experience.

Difficulty? Sandthrax up and down? No ropes? Climbers seem to do fairly well.

Style? Imlay naked in low water, without using drilled holes to ascend out of potholes? Strong climber.

What I think muddies the pothole water, is, when you mix groups and you get the climber showing off who's not a team guy, or, a cranky old former climber who insists on using SRT with no contingency anchoring (ha ha).

But, you get a couple of non climbers with a ton of canyon experience together, who are good at teamwork, and, a couple of experienced climbers with little to no canyon experience, who are good at teamwork, and, you have a very similar outcome, methinks.

Also depends on the type of canyon too...

Speaking of climbing, based on the trip reports in the Climbing forum, I'm pretty sure we can start referring to RAM as a climber who canyons... Maybe until canyon season rolls around...har har...

Its all good.

-Brian in SLC

[oval]

Poor Tom, I must have struck a nerve somewhere for such a relatiatory, hostile, and mocking post!

You seem to be upset about climbers in your group that has a mix of non-climbers in it that aren't willing to wait for you. I, on the other hand, am talking about a group of just climbers... where there is no need to "slow down and wait" because everyone is going the same speed.

Climbers can usually downclimb stuff faster, get out of potholes faster, and do approaches (especially class 4 stuff) faster. They are much more self confident and dont require "babying" while they do a move.

Is FAST everything? Of course not! If you can get stuff done before dark, why worry? If you're going with a group of friends on a mellow canyon, then who cares? But if you are concerned about speed, you'd better believe that who you pick and how well they can climb matters; you hit a canyon with a bunch of downclimbing and I guarentee that you'll spend way more time in there with a much greater chance of epiccing if you have just one person that isn't comfortable with downclimbing and has poor climbing skills.

It's funny to me that you get so bent out of shape when someone tries to point out a simple and intuitive counterpoint. Here you are crying "take a mix, it's a lot better" and I make a counterpoint that you can't handle because it doesn't fit your preconceived scenario.

edit: Brian said it very well

[CarpeyBiggs]

good points bdc. i am not going to argue that climbers can't be fast in canyons. i'm just suggesting it isn't a direct relationship, as i think you are saying. i've known really fast climbers in canyons, and i've known plenty who find it awkward and unappealing.

the point is, climbing is really no prerequisite for moving efficiently in canyons. the more important things are just being fit and working with a team. climbers, naturally, are going to fit that category. but just because someone doesn't climb, doesn't mean they move slower. it just means they don't climb...

but, in most canyons, climbing moves don't necessarily relate. in some (like sandthrax, they do.) but, YMMV.

my bet is the fastest canyoneers out there aren't canyoneers at all. they are very fit athletes and trail runners, that could even include climbers! hence why buzz is so fast... the rest of canyoneering is generally easy, by most athletes standards. that may be a gross generalization, and every canyon is different. but in general, the bulk of a canyon is doing easy moves, and walking with some ropes, and occasionally rappelling and building anchors. (of course, with some exceptions...)

tricky downclimbs? one of the best downclimbing canyoneeers i know has no climbing experience that i know of. just saying, they don't necessarily relate. sometimes, yes.

but, in a place with say, 22 rappels and no bolts, i'd say it won't likely matter if your team is all climbers, or if your team is just some fit athletic guys. what's more important is the team work. what makes climbers fast is not necessarily that they are climbers, but that they fit all the other criteria.

but ultimately, i suppose it doesn't really matter to me. i just want to suggest that climbers move faster is kind of only partially true. but not really.

btw, you are a helluva climber, what was your experience in slots like hog?

[ratagonia]

Poor Tom, I must have struck a nerve somewhere for such a relatiatory, hostile, and mocking post!

You seem to be upset about climbers in your group that has a mix of non-climbers in it that aren't willing to wait for you. I, on the other hand, am talking about a group of just climbers... where there is no need to "slow down and wait" because everyone is going the same speed.

Climbers can usually downclimb stuff faster, get out of potholes faster, and do approaches (especially class 4 stuff) faster. They are much more self confident and dont require "babying" while they do a move.

Is FAST everything? Of course not! If you can get stuff done before dark, why worry? If you're going with a group of friends on a mellow canyon, then who cares? But if you are concerned about speed, you'd better believe that who you pick and how well they can climb matters; you hit a canyon with a bunch of downclimbing and I guarentee that you'll spend way more time in there with a much greater chance of epiccing if you have just one person that isn't comfortable with downclimbing and has poor climbing skills.

It's funny to me that you get so bent out of shape when someone tries to point out a simple and intuitive counterpoint. Here you are crying "take a mix, it's a lot better" and I make a counterpoint that you can't handle because it doesn't fit your preconceived scenario.

edit: Brian said it very well

It's a slow news day, is most of it.

You, like I, generalize. You make claims; my observation is the opposite. And I ASS-U-ME you realize that I get out somewhat more than you, see a lot greater mix of groups than you. So I CLAIM my observations have a greater grounding than yours. It's not my "preconceived notions", it is my observations across 500 canyon days in the last 6 years, with a whole amazing variety of people. That's all.

Okay, maybe that's not all. This "Forum" is a place for running ideas up the flagpole and seeing who salutes. While your stated syllogism is salutable, I have a concern that the overall viewpoint that your idea fits into is contrary to my overall canyoneering philosophy, which I attempt to proselytize using Bogley as a pulpit, whenever the opportunity presents.

Canyoneering is for everyone. A mix of people is more fun. People with good skills can make the day more fun by supporting the team. People who are not particularly good climbers can be excellent canyoneers. Climbers are not canyoneers, though some skills transfer over for some people. Good leadership counts.

BDC does a good job of generalizing from a few examples - but does he? Examples out on the .01% of the canyon experience provide very little illumination to the general canyon experience.

Yup, no doubt, a group of experienced, skilled trad climbers with more cojones than brains are going to be much faster climbing up Sandthrax than a bunch of beginner canyoneers. Syllogism - or perhaps more accurately - Sillyism! What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!

Time? Kolob/Imlay/Heaps in a day? Jared, Ryan and Buzz. Very strong climbers. Not as much canyon experience.

Yes, those guys are intense animals, incredible climbers, amazing trail-runners. Their stories of learning to canyoneer make for wonderful reading - because it is amazing they survived (Jugging the rope with an ATC and a strong Left Arm - GET OUT!!)! I took Buzz through his first canyon - Heaps - and really did not expect him to canyon again because his technical skills were so poor. They improved. Buzz was along on the Tri-HAD BECAUSE he was their canyoneering expert. They failed to achieve their goal because they were ill-prepared for an important aspect of the Zion Canyoneering Experience - finding the MIA route, and successfully navigating the maze of roads back to the trailhead. And because they failed to appreciate that this would be a difficult task. (And because Kolob was closed most of the summer when they went to go train on it). What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!

Yes, My Dear Mr. Oval, there are canyons that involve a lot of downclimbing, that AFTER A FEW CANYONS, climbers can do well. Mr. BDC himself, on his first trip through Leprechaun, struggled a bit more than was pleasant to watch - a new experience for him, a highly skilled trad climber. BDC points out that GOOD climbers know how to work in a team. Yup, they do. But only if they get over their disdain for the non-climbers in their group and decide to figure out how to contribute to the team. If they do that, we label them "Good" climbers; if not, we label them "cocky, self-centered, non-team-oriented" climbers. I guess most of the climbers who would degrade themselves by canyoneering would fit in the first category, but I have certainly seen both.

But, you get a couple of non climbers with a ton of canyon experience together, who are good at teamwork, and, a couple of experienced climbers with little to no canyon experience, who are good at teamwork, and, you have a very similar outcome, methinks.

And I think not, but there is so much grey area, yeah maybe. When you qualify the climbers as "good at teamwork", well yeah, I guess you put a big ol' thumb on the scale and that makes your statement true. Trade routes in Zion, that the BC Desk sends climbers to: lots of struggle, hard to say why, the canyons are straightforward, but climbers still seem to epic in them. Those dudes flashed in Spry - climbers. Other people in Spry that same day, not hurt - canyoneers.

Jus' sayin'...

Tom

(Mmmmmmm, mud wrestling, my favorite!!)

[jman]

Hmm, valid points Tom.

I have a good friend who is a excellent climber at 5.11s and everything underneath. He weighs about 130lbs and is about 5'7" or 5'8". We got back from a 3 day adventure in Havasupai a few weeks ago, and after the 1st day - his body was tired and exhausted (just from the hike down) that he had to get flown out by helicopter the day we left. We had to use a pole and leave from 4:30am from the campground just to reach the helicopter in time at 7am. It took us 30min to reach the village from the campground.

Anywho, my friend Jeff, he a rock-climbing nut. He scales his house and jumps off the 1st and second story onto his trampoline. He'll cliff-jump from 60ft without hesitation. He'll do double backflips at the Pinecreek swimhole and take crazy jumps straight onto his feet, 15ft up with again, no hestitation.

But....a simple hike (roughly 10miles, all down hill and mostly flat once you past the switchbacks) literally destroyed his body. He said that canyoneering was out for the rest of this year due to him recovering and preparing for boarding this winter. I on the other hand, had a broken ankle (talus) back in March of this year, and recovered perfectly, and had 0 pain/hinderance due to my training and endurance, and long walks/runs in the park.

So ironic..

[oval]

It's a slow news day, is most of it.

You, like I, generalize. You make claims; my observation is the opposite. And I ASS-U-ME you realize that I get out somewhat more than you, see a lot greater mix of groups than you. So I CLAIM my observations have a greater grounding than yours. It's not my "preconceived notions", it is my observations across 500 canyon days in the last 6 years, with a whole amazing variety of people. That's all.

I think that you being a guide gives you an excessively skewed perspective on canyoneering in general, and an ego-boost that precludes listening to anyone else, especially if it disagrees with your practices. Also, from your above statement, it is apparent that you have never been in a full group of climbers, the situation that I am discribing.

Okay, maybe that's not all. This "Forum" is a place for running ideas up the flagpole and seeing who salutes. While your stated syllogism is salutable, I have a concern that the overall viewpoint that your idea fits into is contrary to my overall canyoneering philosophy, which I attempt to proselytize using Bogley as a pulpit, whenever the opportunity presents.

So you do see value in my post? You are one hard to follow nerd-rager, Tom.

Canyoneering is for everyone. A mix of people is more fun. People with good skills can make the day more fun by supporting the team. People who are not particularly good climbers can be excellent canyoneers. Climbers are not canyoneers, though some skills transfer over for some people. Good leadership counts.

Yeah, I just said above that of course anyone can canyoneer and have fun with it without being a climbing guru. Just wanting to get on the pedestal again or attempting at a pathetic criteria to "shut down" my dangerous argument that you could do canyons faster with climbers? I don't get "clash" that you would falsely argue exists.

Yes, My Dear Mr. Oval, there are canyons that involve a lot of downclimbing, that AFTER A FEW CANYONS, climbers can do well. Mr. BDC himself, on his first trip through Leprechaun, struggled a bit more than was pleasant to watch - a new experience for him, a highly skilled trad climber. BDC points out that GOOD climbers know how to work in a team. Yup, they do. But only if they get over their disdain for the non-climbers in their group and decide to figure out how to contribute to the team. If they do that, we label them "Good" climbers; if not, we label them "cocky, self-centered, non-team-oriented" climbers. I guess most of the climbers who would degrade themselves by canyoneering would fit in the first category, but I have certainly seen both.

Ahh, the generalizations and assumptions are too great for me! Which fallacy to tackle first?

Naw, I'll let people figure it out for themselves, but for now, I think the most appropriate description of you is:

cocky, self-centered, non-team-oriented

when it comes to any discussion on canyoneering. I'd add ego-maniac to that as well, which I'm sure it takes to be the self-proclaimed lead and enforcer for such a forum as this, for the poor folks that you just have to protect from such dangerous ideas like I have presented here. Feel free to

proselytize using Bogley as a pulpit, whenever the opportunity presents

but give up the self-righteousness and intolerance.

[Brian in SLC]

btw, you are a helluva climber, what was your experience in slots like hog?

I'm actually not a "helluva" climber, just, I do it a bunch without being out there on the bell curve, strength wise. So, fairly experienced I guess. 350 pitches last year or some such? Yeah, I count 'em. Ha ha. But, none "that" hard. I mostly hang in the mid to low grades. Kids these days, at least the notable ones, come out the chute so darn strong... Rare that I climb at the 5.10 level (maybe if I can cheat). Did do Evil Eye on Devil's Castle recently (6p of up to 5.11a some say, but, I didn't think it was harder than 5.10d, whatever that means). So, saavy enough to cheat when I need to, and, recognize my limitations, which is a skill unto itself I suppose.

Just did the main Hog (with Tom, Rick, Allan, etc, when I ran into you last fall, Tom's b-day weekend). Went ok. I'm probably fairly slow and careful, but, felt solid in it. Glad it didn't get any narrower. The extended narrow stuff probably isn't my cup of tea, but, I see the attraction. And, to be sure, I was kinda a bit more psyched about the stuff you guys get into after some of that. Plus, I was sore, which is always good...!

Some many different aspects to this canyon stuff....

[CarpeyBiggs]

Feel free to but give up the self-righteousness and intolerance.

ha. but then it wouldn't be bogley!

[CarpeyBiggs]

I'm actually not a "helluva" climber....

yeah, lots of mediocre climbers summit st. elias...

but i'm just glad some of you climber types don't mind slummin' it in the forums with us canyon types.

[Brian in SLC]

BDC does a good job of generalizing from a few examples - but does he? Examples out on the .01% of the canyon experience provide very little illumination to the general canyon experience.

You gotta be able to set the bar somewhere, though. And, speed ascents/descents, difficulty of stuff, etc, set the bar a bit. So, only illuminates the general experience when it gives some perspective.

Yup, no doubt, a group of experienced, skilled trad climbers with more cojones than brains are going to be much faster climbing up Sandthrax than a bunch of beginner canyoneers. Syllogism - or perhaps more accurately - Sillyism! What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!

Well, not in general, maybe, but, it does set the bar. Shows what is possible. When folks see that first hand, or, even comprehend it a bit, then it does have an effect on maybe style. Some cause and effect. I could draw a comparison to climb, like, the Appy's v the Vulgarians for instance. When the rules got bent and climbing grades progressed. Everyone moved up a notch.

Buzz was along on the Tri-HAD BECAUSE he was their canyoneering expert. They failed to achieve their goal because they were ill-prepared for an important aspect of the Zion Canyoneering Experience - finding the MIA route, and successfully navigating the maze of roads back to the trailhead. And because they failed to appreciate that this would be a difficult task. (And because Kolob was closed most of the summer when they went to go train on it). What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!

Nah, had they NOT gone up the MIA like he wanted, and, instead did what the young fit, strong climbing kid wanted, and gone out the bottom, then the kid would have finished sub 24 instead of having to take care of that old guy (joking, Buzz! Ha ha!).

What does it have to do with canyoneering? Well, they built off "someone's" Jihad, didn't they? It sets the bar. If folks realize that there's people out there doing these canyons easily in 8 hours each or so, and, they get their game on, mind set to do in a day instead of three days, then, it does have an effect on everyone.

Again, a climbing comparison. The nose in a day. Commonly done now. 5 day ascents? Not near as common. Did speed ascents have an effect on this? Sure. Fairly undeniable. Same with canyoneering. So, not "nada". You yourself have played the speed game. Techniques, gear, etc. All deployed efficiently. Why? Because time out matters.

Mr. BDC himself, on his first trip through Leprechaun, struggled a bit more than was pleasant to watch - a new experience for him, a highly skilled trad climber.

You mean Hog. Wasn't anything new, really. We'd done Lep the day before, and, only rappelled once. And, I've always been fairly cautious on down climbs. Watching you skittle around was pretty entertaining. The man in his element. All that experience makes a big difference. Very much an elevated comfort level for you. As it should be. You've got the milage.

I've always been fairly uneasy with tight places. I've been stuck in a canyon (that spot in Davis Canyon dropping in from the road). These tight, long, narrow slots are not something I migrate towards. I do ok in some chimney and OW type stuff. But, I fear for when it gets "interesting". A man's gotta know his limitations...

What was probably painful to watch was me rappelling double strand...ha ha.

Trade routes in Zion, that the BC Desk sends climbers to: lots of struggle, hard to say why, the canyons are straightforward, but climbers still seem to epic in them. Those dudes flashed in Spry - climbers. Other people in Spry that same day, not hurt - canyoneers.

Fatalities in canyons? Climbers v non climbers. So subjective. Plenty of SAR's in Zion if you're looking for examples. Of the SAR's, climbers v non climbers? Dunno. Fun to ponder, methinks.

Some "climbers" aren't that saavy as climbers. Some canyoneers ditto. Its a hard thing to generalize.

I agree that some folks are just in tune with being "out". Climbers or non-climbers. Saavy regardless of the label.

Fun to think (and spray) about, though.

Geez, now you got me thinkin' I need to do a canyon again...

[Brian in SLC]

yeah, lots of mediocre climbers summit st. elias...

but i'm just glad some you climber types don't mind slummin' it in the forums with us canyon types.

Denied on St. Elias. 2 for 3 in the range, though (Bona and East Ridge of Logan). My next big trip? Climbing on the beach in Italy? Ha ha. Evolution, baby. Or, embracing decadence...

I think part of the reason I like the canyon forums, though, is the techniques, rigging, experience, comradery, all that, really do compare to climbing for me. And, frankly, its fun and good entertainment.

Plus, canyoneers do really neat festivals in great climbing terrain...!

[spinesnaper]

I have been thinking about the issue of keeper potholes as my partner and I have been progressing through the less technical canyons. When we are ready, I think the ultimate keeper pothole technique will be going more experienced canyoneers.

In reading about the various devices proposed, has anyone tried some of the lighter weight tactical breeching gear? I am thinking of a collapsible titanium climbing stick. The first device is called a Ruhl Tech Breaching Folding Pole Ladder with Alternating steps. It is 7.5 feet tall and weighs 9.5 lbs. Don't really know how tall this needs to be but I am sure someone out there does. (ruhltechbreaching.com). Might save a lot of time.

Another device is a folding, menacing hook called a Yates Afgan hook and deploys on a long aluminum pole and carries a step ladder below it. This stuff can be seen in the tactical section of the yates gear website.

I am just saying that if one is willing to spend a grand on a dry suit, why not on a titanium collapsible ladder. If it was on Tom's website and the weight was reasonable even if the price is steep, I'd be a customer if I knew it would increase my safety.

I'd post pictures but I am too young on this site.

Ken

[CarpeyBiggs]

ladders - aiders or etrier's
technical hook - happy hooker, grappling hook, or talon

10 pound ladder? - only if you carry it. and 7.5 feet tall sounds way too short. multiple aiders can easily reach this length.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=258

[CarpeyBiggs]

and who is spending a grand on drysuits?