Lets talk about "keepers" and how to conquer them.

[ratagonia]

OMG.... Cranberry and vodka out my nose! Thanks!!

What does it mean??

It means DSTRBD drinks girly drinks. Cranberry and vodka? THAT'S disturbing.

Tom

[The Good Cop]

I believe the TR on that venture is on Tom's Rave from last fall, well worth checking out.

[ratagonia]

Anyone ever used a kickboard? It helps lift your partner out of the water. And when there's no water it's nice to have a padded layer doing a shoulder stand.

In Canyoneering, that's called a Pack. With floatation - usually a drybag with extra air in it. As someone said, linking a couple floaty packs together = a raft.

T

[ratagonia]

Pack with floatation in it works as well as anything. And, it not extra gear. If you need padding, most packs also have a removable foam pad that can work too. Also something you'll have with you.

As long as your partner isn't wearing metal cleats (tricouni nails? Ha ha) in their shoes, I've never felt the need for any padding on a partner assist, shoulder stand, etc. Of course, some of us think we're more durable (or have a higher tolerance for damage) too...

One thing that is a BIG help with that is having variety on your team. Big beefy guys. Little small climber types. Remember, for a dwarf toss you need both a Dwarf AND a Giant.

T

[ratagonia]

I believe the TR on that venture is on Tom's Rave from last fall, well worth checking out.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...cket/index.htm

[The Good Cop]

And Dan, X whatever on that photo in the Cricket monster, that is fantastic, thanks for sharing it!

[Brian in SLC]

Even Reinhold Messner used a hammer and pins and left fixed gear.

Really? Where and on what route? You have a reference for this?

His famous "Murder of the Impossible" talks to taking only a couple pitons for the belays on climbs, which, I'd assume a partner would then remove.

Messner wasn't known for leaving much, if any gear, on a route. Reference the 7th Grade for instance.

Unless you're talking about him leaving his bro...nah...that's not even funny...sorta...

Cheers!

[oldno7]

Shortly after the Neon event, I too went in search of the ultimate weapon for PH escape.
I found this online somewhere and had to have it. It is very light, I could add water or sand in the tube and along with the carabiner attached, I could throw this over 100'.
It "was" the real deal, the "ultimate" tool, until one of the 3 prongs broke off. After that I lost trust in it, although, I think someone with a retail company, based in the MC area, could hire this project back out and it would be a great, light weight escape device. I think you could even throw it far enough in Neon to reach something of substance, not to mention the huge amount of friction that could be obtained with 100'+ of rope on the ground.

[moab mark]

Dan,

That picture of yours is the bomb.

Have you got poster size copies of that for sale?

[Iceaxe]

Tough to beat a 5.13/5.14 climber for escaping just about anything..... I've watched climbers of that ability escape many times from potholes I considered nearly impossible to climb out of or around..... Tom hates it when I say this but I'll trade two graybeards and a bag of gadgets any day of the week for one top notch rope gun.... YMMV...

[CarpeyBiggs]

you mean take spiderman? that's our guy!

[Iceaxe]

The only thing I know for certain is the rope gun in our group is never me.....

[CarpeyBiggs]

mark, i can get a print done for you. depends on if you want me to mat and frame it, and what size. hit me up, we can figure something out.

[Brian in SLC]

mark, i can get a print done for you. depends on if you want me to mat and frame it, and what size. hit me up, we can figure something out.

Ditto that for me too. 8X10-ish. Great shot.

You do matts and frames? Dang kids can do it all these days...

[Scott Card]

Some other ideas kicked around:

A. Dave Black's Softball: take something you can throw really well, like a softball. Drill a hole through it and tie a cord to it. Maybe the 6mm would be best. Throw it downcanyon as far as you can. Maybe it will catch on something, or the cord wrap around something...

B. Rich Carlson's Handful of Hook: take a bunch of hooks of various sizes. Tie together, then a rope to that. Maybe tie to a softball. Chuck the whole thing into a pile of debris. Maybe something will catch.

Rarely have I seen places downstream of a difficult keeper, where either of these tools seems likely to work.

Tom

Years ago I made the softball thing and I have packed it through a couple of canyons and I have yet to find a place where I could use it. If I could use it, the pack toss was a better option. If anyone wants to try the soft ball thing, let me know and you can borrow mine. The pothole in Neon, if my memory is correct, doesn't lend itself well to the softball or hook throw. There is no debris pile, at least when I have gone through.

[AJ]

The rope goes close to one end, if you can get it there. So this can work ... for short sticks. As the stick gets longer, the stick need to be fatter and fatter. Your 10' Neon stick would need to be 1-1/2" thin wall aluminum, roughly 10 lbs. The 1/2" tent pole on the Happy Hooker is the largest high-strength pole size Easton makes, and notice how flexxy it is.

As Tom (and others) stated; the problem with using a pole is the strength needed. Tom's suggestion of putting the rope towards an edge is definitely a good one; as a rope in the middle would produce more force and break the stick/pole/etc easier. I've used a similar technique with a rope on both ends of a hiking pole to brace a short downclimb. Pulling on one side was levering the pole into a notch; so we could use it to brace our descent. Pulling the other side unlodged the pole (rope went up and over a rock.) As Tom mentioned, there is not a lot of places that would work; and 2) it was pretty darn sketchy. Penalty points for failure were low. I wouldn't dream of doing anything like that at a dangerous location.

Some other ideas kicked around:

A. Dave Black's Softball: take something you can throw really well, like a softball. Drill a hole through it and tie a cord to it. Maybe the 6mm would be best. Throw it downcanyon as far as you can. Maybe it will catch on something, or the cord wrap around something...

B. Rich Carlson's Handful of Hook: take a bunch of hooks of various sizes. Tie together, then a rope to that. Maybe tie to a softball. Chuck the whole thing into a pile of debris. Maybe something will catch.

Rarely have I seen places downstream of a difficult keeper, where either of these tools seems likely to work.

Tom

In going upcanyon, I've tossed hooks and hooks attached to other things; and had them catch, and (thankfully), hold for upclimbing - even an ascent using mechanical ascenders. However, it's REALLY sketchy; be prepared to change your shorts after you climb up and over and see what a small notch you just trusted your life in. Better to use this as a backup and put your trust in methods that you can see (partner assists, etc.)

[AJ]

I believe the TR on that venture is on Tom's Rave from last fall, well worth checking out.

Tom's got a couple reports on his rave:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/

I've got our trip on my website: www.adventure-geek.com - Look under Trips, and then 10/23/08.

Jason (Goofball) went there just before us; and had a report on this website too...

[ratagonia]

Tough to beat a 5.13/5.14 climber for escaping just about anything..... I've watched climbers of that ability escape many times from potholes I considered nearly impossible to climb out of or around..... Tom hates it when I say this but I'll trade two graybeards and a bag of gadgets any day of the week for one top notch rope gun.... YMMV...

Both types are helpful, that's for sure. Scott Holley was real helpful that July day in Heaps at low water, no hooking kit. The guy could climb 5.12 in a drysuit!

Of course, in SLC, 5.13 climbers are a dime a dozen. Who do you know, SHANE, who has climbed a 5.14? or is that slashed number just a bit of the old Shanester razzle-dazzle?

Tom

[oval]

I've found that having a full group of only climbers beats a group of non-climbers or a climber/non-climber mix for canyoneering. A full group of climbers is usually much faster than a group with non-climbers in it. I don't know about 5.13/14, but certainly a full group of people that regularly climb 5.10 moves a lot faster than most groups. Just my own personal observations.

[ratagonia]

I've found that having a full group of only climbers beats a group of non-climbers or a climber/non-climber mix for canyoneering. A full group of climbers is usually much faster than a group with non-climbers in it. I don't know about 5.13/14, but certainly a full group of people that regularly climb 5.10 moves a lot faster than most groups. Just my own personal observations.

Uh, yeah, sorta, well, NO.

My experience is that people that work well as a team make the best team, and get the team through the canyon most efficiently, and with the most fun. Yes, it certainly helps to have a decent climber or two, but, far from necessary. My experience is actual rock climbers often are the least useful in canyons, at least the first time through, because they think the game is to show off how well they can climb. It's not. Showing off how well you can climb often gets in the way of moving down the canyon smoothly as a team.

YMMV

Tom