Lets talk about "keepers" and how to conquer them.

[spinesnaper]

Ok, so a tactical ladder is out.

I certainly didn't pay that for my drysuit. I have noticed that it seems to gain two new holes for every trip down canyon. Perhaps I should have bought a new one. However, I have come to respect the wisdom of the wetsuit.

Ken

[CarpeyBiggs]

yeah, drysuits don't really work in canyons. but, i don't spend alot of time in zion-like slots, where they are probably best suited. outside of zion, they just get killed.

however, they might be a reasonable choice for times like freezefest, but every year there seems to be some people who get leaks. wetsuits just seem to work better.

in terms of defeating potholes, i'm sure there are some good ideas yet to figure out, but i wonder if most of them will be situational. most of the "techniques" are just reworks of systems that have always been used. i.e., throws and hooks (drills aren't necessary anymore). in fact, i'm unaware of anyone finding a pothole that CAN'T be defeated by natural means (or already present bolts or holes). i don't think it's really a systems problem anymore. it's just making sure one is efficient enough with the skills.

it also could probably be solved with a happy hooker or something else, if the partner assist didn't work. but we didn't have it with us. we didn't know how deep the water would be, so we were happy to find it wasn't a big deal. but, if the sand was scoured... it'd be tough.

that said, i've seen a couple potholes that scare the living piss out of me. probably 5 of them. sandbags have defeated a few of them. and a very lucky partner assist defeated the other. if this pothole i'm thinking of is ever scoured out, it could be pretty ugly. the throw was too far for sand bags, and the lip had nothing to catch on anyways. it was the last rap though, so it could be solved by setting it first, and then doing the canyon... but that kind of spoils the fun. i do know of one other monster keeper that does have to be set before going to the head of the canyon, although it has been defeated with a bunch of swimmers, some pseudo-potshots, and a 75 pound gymnast... lol.

here's some photos of it from eric godfrey.

[ratagonia]

I have been thinking about the issue of keeper potholes as my partner and I have been progressing through the less technical canyons. When we are ready, I think the ultimate keeper pothole technique will be going with more experienced canyoneers.

In reading about the various devices proposed, has anyone tried some of the lighter weight tactical breeching gear? I am thinking of a collapsible titanium climbing stick. The first device is called a Ruhl Tech Breaching Folding Pole Ladder with Alternating steps. It is 7.5 feet tall and weighs 9.5 lbs. Don't really know how tall this needs to be but I am sure someone out there does. (ruhltechbreaching.com). Might save a lot of time.

Another device is a folding, menacing hook called a Yates Afgan hook and deploys on a long aluminum pole and carries a step ladder below it. This stuff can be seen in the tactical section of the yates gear website.

I am just saying that if one is willing to spend a grand on a dry suit, why not on a titanium collapsible ladder. If it was on Tom's website and the weight was reasonable even if the price is steep, I'd be a customer if I knew it would increase my safety.

I'd post pictures but I am too young on this site.

Ken

Welcome to the Bogley, Spine-snapper!

Yeah, those tools are interesting, but unlikely to be generally useful. And extra 9.5 lbs? I gotta get more than 7.5 feet from that, Jeff Dredge or Ryan "The Crane" Hull can lift me 7.5 feet and are self-propelled, when available. The Yates thingee is a derivative of the Happy Hooker; and the HH has proved to be a rarely-useful canyoneering tool, not worth the 1-1/2 lbs to carry it, in general.

Throwing bags works pretty well.

Tom

[hank moon]

Boss, boss!

De Crane, De Crane!

[ratagonia]

hey tom, maybe you should get out with some climbers every now and again! you keeping company with the AARP again?

At least on the AARP trips, I have half a chance of being the fastest!!!

Tom

[sasteve49]

Had an interesting series of 4 deeeep potholes in a canyon on Powell last Tuesday. Threw potshots into the last(4th and only dry) hole for the guide rope,and then set up the MaxxiPad on a flat surface, piled with sand. Hooked up the rap rope AND the guide rope to the 'Pad and traversed these holes easily. They were half fill with water and especially the 3rd hole was too deep to stand but I tiblocked out first then one-man pulled Rick and finally we pulled Maria out.She did not even get wet, traversing over all the holes on the guide rope off the MaxxiPad!

[ratagonia]

Had an interesting series of 4 deeeep potholes in a canyon on Powell last Tuesday. Threw potshots into the last(4th and only dry) hole for the guide rope,and then set up the MaxxiPad on a flat surface, piled with sand. Hooked up the rap rope AND the guide rope to the 'Pad and traversed these holes easily. They were half fill with water and especially the 3rd hole was too deep to stand but I tiblocked out first then one-man pulled Rick and finally we pulled Maria out.She did not even get wet, traversing over all the holes on the guide rope off the MaxxiPad!

Did you video the whole thing? Looks like fun.

I'm unclear - did you throw-to-a-guided-rappel for the whole set? If so, then why were you in the 3rd pothole??? Curious minds want to know!

Tom

[sasteve49]

The potshots were in the 4th pothole(the furthest we could throw round that corner) and this was the guide rope attached back to the MaxxiPad. So we could only go as far as the 3rd, then tiblock out and over into the 4th, where I took over from the potshots as meat for the guide rope so Maria could use the guide to come over into the 4th. The 4th hole was dry and fairly easy to get out of.Too busy to vid the whole process....
By the way Tom,what were the conditions in Imlay today and did you do the Sneak?

[ratagonia]

By the way Tom,what were the conditions in Imlay today and did you do the Sneak?

Next week. At least I hope Dean is on the same schedule...

Tom

[sasteve49]

Dean just emailed me, said he has not heard back from you lately. He wants to know if Imlay still on, he will be arriving Wednesday. Have fun.

[EvergreenDean]

Actually, Steve and I were emailing about drinking beer whilst we are in Springdale. Mentioned I hadn't heard from you but assume we are still on for Imlay. You got my cell...

[taatmk]

Attachment 37037

Ok. I realize that this is a 2 year old thread, but I have been hoping to elevate my skill set to include pot hole escapes. I've only been to a few minor, fairly easy ones thus far. Been reading a lot of great info on the subject here. Also have been considering the methods explained in my readings, and also floating ideas around myself.

Question for those with experience, and not to sound like this idea comes from the Walmart Blue Light special isle, but besides packing the weight, what would be the disadvantage of packing a deflated Svylor type inflatable raft for use as a pothole escape? One would avoid expending valuable heat and energy while swimming/assisting others in frigid water, it would provide a "base" for climbing out, etc... Any thoughts are kindly accepted. Is this too 'Mickey Mouse' of an idea?

[MrAdam]

Ok. I realize that this is a 2 year old thread, but I have been hoping to elevate my skill set to include pot hole escapes. I've only been to a few minor, fairly easy ones thus far. Been reading a lot of great info on the subject here. Also have been considering the methods explained in my readings, and also floating ideas around myself.

Question for those with experience, and not to sound like this idea comes from the Walmart Blue Light special isle, but besides packing the weight, what would be the disadvantage of packing a deflated Svylor type inflatable raft for use as a pothole escape? One would avoid expending valuable heat and energy while swimming/assisting others in frigid water, it would provide a "base" for climbing out, etc... Any thoughts are kindly accepted. Is this too 'Mickey Mouse' of an idea?

I am fairly certain this idea has actually been used before. I know it is talked about in Todd Martin's Grand Canyoneering book as a possible escape for the giant pothole in Salt Trail Canyon.

[ratagonia]

Ok. I realize that this is a 2 year old thread, but I have been hoping to elevate my skill set to include pot hole escapes. I've only been to a few minor, fairly easy ones thus far. Been reading a lot of great info on the subject here. Also have been considering the methods explained in my readings, and also floating ideas around myself.

Question for those with experience, and not to sound like this idea comes from the Walmart Blue Light special isle, but besides packing the weight, what would be the disadvantage of packing a deflated Svylor type inflatable raft for use as a pothole escape? One would avoid expending valuable heat and energy while swimming/assisting others in frigid water, it would provide a "base" for climbing out, etc... Any thoughts are kindly accepted. Is this too 'Mickey Mouse' of an idea?

Could. Have thought about it at times, especially with the new Supai boats:

http://www.supaiadventuregear.com/

But, it only helps to a certain extent. Certainly helpful, but the Pot Shots work quite well and are powerful, meaning that they solve the problem for a wide variety of circumstanced.

The boat PLUS the potshot - now THAT is a powerful tool. Being able to throw from the boat would be a significant advantage in quite a few circumstances.

The boat takes a while to blow up. Is easily damaged. Fairly expensive. Requires carrying it and not using it quite a few times, which tends to be discouraging, so it tends to not be brought on the one trip where it is really needed.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I have used a raft to escape a keeper pothole before. But we created the raft by clipping three backpacks together with a couple of biners and stuffing the packs with our empty water bottles, a canyon keg, and a few other floatable items. It worked well enough to get our climber high enough to make a go of it.

No way in hell I'd carry the weight of a blow up raft unless I had a very specific use for it.

Sent using Tapatalk

[canyondevil]

No way in hell I'd carry the weight of a blow up raft unless I had a very specific use for it.

I always carry a blow up sheep. Its like a quarter the weight of a raft, and a whole lot more versatile.

[ewestesen]

Attachment 37037

Since this thread is moving again, I had a thought, but I don't think it would be very feasible.

For a keeper like this one, how about a sandtrap escape? I don't know how you'd do it... but if you could get the sandtrap up on the opposite lip, and spread out nicely, you could then throw rocks onto it, or some muddy sand, until it creates enough friction to get the first escapee out.

Maybe throwing in a really skinny flexible tent pole would help the sandtrap pop open?

[ratagonia]

Since this thread is moving again, I had a thought, but I don't think it would be very feasible.

For a keeper like this one, how about a sandtrap escape? I don't know how you'd do it... but if you could get the sandtrap up on the opposite lip, and spread out nicely, you could then throw rocks onto it, or some muddy sand, until it creates enough friction to get the first escapee out.

Maybe throwing in a really skinny flexible tent pole would help the sandtrap pop open?

Yeah, maybe make it a little smaller so it is easier to throw, fill it with sand before you throw it...

Hmmmm, maybe something like this?::: http://www.imlaycanyongear.com/potholes.php

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Hmmmm, maybe something like this?::: http://www.imlaycanyongear.com/potholes.php

I was thinking the same exact thing....

[ewestesen]

Ha ha... well yeah...

But with the spread out sand trap, you have a lot more friction working in your favor, not just weight... of course... you could just toss several potshots and do the same thing... sooooo....

yeah.