Lets talk about "keepers" and how to conquer them.

[DSTRBD]

I have always been the guy who thinks outside the box, I LOVE the problem solving aspect to anything I do. While spending countless hours here Lurking/reading I came across the Neon "keeper" TR, there was a very good discussion going on about escapes from said pothole and potential ways to conquer it in "keeper" mode (although none of them worked that trip). So we have all the standard stuff to use to escape (pack toss, partner assist, potshots, hooker, etc) Is there anything anyone else uses to help them? If we use the neon keeper as an jumping off point, has anyone got out of it using and unconventional method unlike the ones I mentioned above? I have been thinking about a couple other things that might help in areas just like the Neon keeper where there is a deep bottom or smooth walls where there is no way a hooker will find anything to catch on.

Anyone have any input?

[CarpeyBiggs]

have you read this? interesting insights to the keeper in neon, which is a very uncommon type of pothole. there is a small window where it can be very very hard to escape. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/50609

however, we've used all of those methods you mentioned to escape keepers. i'd say most frequent we use potshots and partner assists. seems nearly every pothole can surrender to multiple potshots if they are used/thrown with skill.

however, the keeper in neon is a different animal, because it will not surrender to most of these techniques, unless someone is willing to hold their breath and go under water...

[stefan]

here is a report/discussion of a may 08 descent by mark rosen and co (warning spoiler alert)

Neon Keeper Descended

[oval]

I personally always bring a drill and a hammer for situations where I don't know what to expect. I've never used them since I've never encountered such a situation, but I wouldn't hesitate to if my life depended on it and no "clean" methods worked. Obviously this sort of thing is the end of the line/last resort, but I think it's worth bringing up.

[DSTRBD]

I have just read that, lots of good info and another reason why I have been thinking about other tools. There are 3 things I have been thinking would be useful in a unconventional keeper, Please pardon my ignorance if these are common or not realistic....like I said... Outside the box...

1. Grappling hook. I know this has been discussed/used before But im thinking a real small hook with a small pully attached.

So you have a small heavy duty Grappling hook That has a small (6 to 8mm) sized pulley on it, already ran through the pulley is a small lightweight piece of pull cord, Once its caught you can pull a stronger cord through the pulley and use it to assist you out to a beached whale or whatever. The idea here was that with a small piece of heavy duty twine you could throw it a long way without the heavy rope, then pull in a heavier rope if needed. This might work in a spot where a pot shot wont hold.

2. Mono pole for deep pools.

The idea here is this:
You have a deep pothole (Neon) That is to deep for conventional partner assist. IF you had a collapsible "tent style" pole with say 18 inch sections to adjust for depth of the pothole, you have a sling attached to the top where you could get a foot in, you could stick one end (with a rubber foot on it) down to the bottom of the keeper and with a mild (even floating) partner assist you could step up to a beached whale and even use the same pole in a horizontal manner to push yourself even further up into the area where you beached.

3. Lets call this a "Catcher stick"

The idea here is this:
You have a strong tent pole style collapsible "stick" with rubber boots on each end (think the bottom of a cane) You eyeball the width of the canyon needing "caught" you attach a rope to the center of the stick and throw it up into the slot, you gently pull until it gets caught (wedges sideways) itself into the slot and enables you to pull yourself up. This would be one you could use where the walls are slick enough you cannot find a spot for the hooker to catch.

Ok Let me have it.....

[CarpeyBiggs]

happy hooker is similar to what you mention. pretty sure tom doesn't even sell it anymore because potshots are typically much more effective. pully? what do you need the pully for? if you can get a rope in place, using ascending gear is easy. maybe i'm missing something here about what kind of haul system you are thinking of making.

the grappling hook won't help, certainly on the neon keeper, and the scary keepers i know of. nothing to hook it on to that i can think of. plus, it's heavy and hard to carry. sounds miserable.

mono pole idea might work, but most serious keeper potholes are too deep i would think. plus, stabilizing it seems like a nightmare, especially if the edge of the pothole is gently sloping away from the lip, like most keepers are. also, the scariest potholes are well over 12 feet deep... some as much as 25 to 30.

the catcher stick - not sure i really follow. not sure i know of any collapsible poles that would be strong enough to support a humans weight when it is loaded horizontally instead of vertically. getting it to "catch" sounds pretty tough to me.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I personally always bring a drill and a hammer for situations where I don't know what to expect. I've never used them since I've never encountered such a situation, but I wouldn't hesitate to if my life depended on it and no "clean" methods worked. Obviously this sort of thing is the end of the line/last resort, but I think it's worth bringing up.

not sure it would help you in a true swimming keeper. ever tried to drill while floating? even with a partner trying to push against you. it's just shy of impossible. what's more, the keeper in neon is overhanging at the lip, if i remember correctly (though i've never seen it as a keeper, always have swam over the top of it...)

[stefan]

[DSTRBD]

happy hooker is similar to what you mention. pretty sure tom doesn't even sell it anymore because potshots are typically much more effective. pully? what do you need the pully for? I'm probably over thinking this, the idea was that it is pretty small (did you click the link) so it would catch on smaller lips or eben almost nothing, be very lightweight etc. I was picturing swimming in a keeper needing to throw a potshot the "40" feet people were saying neon needs for a potshot,( I know throw it before your in the water :D ) So with a small (palm sized) grappling hook you could attach a very small (1 to 2 MM) through the pulley so you would have less weight to throw, Then use the pulley to attach a stronger line to for the actual "work" :shrug: if you can get a rope in place, using ascending gear is easy. maybe i'm missing something here about what kind of haul system you are thinking of making.

the grappling hook won't help, certainly on the neon keeper, and the scary keepers i know of. nothing to hook it on to that i can think of. plus, it's heavy and hard to carry. sounds miserable.See above, small sharp hook.

mono pole idea might work, but most serious keeper potholes are too deep i would think IF it were in sections you could carry any length you "might" need for the right depth.. plus, stabilizing it seems like a nightmare, especially if the edge of the pothole is gently sloping away from the lip, like most keepers are. Yes, agreed the stabilization would be the hard part, But if you don't get greedy and try to get to far out of the water there is not much to stabilize until you out of the water. I don't really see using this to completely get out of the water , Maybe just for a good solid push to beach where there is no "bottom". also, the scariest potholes are well over 12 feet deep... some as much as 25 to 30.

the catcher stick - not sure i really follow. not sure i know of any collapsible poles that would be strong enough to support a humans weight when it is loaded horizontally instead of vertically. getting it to "catch" sounds pretty tough to me. I have actually beta tested this one and it works quite well, If the stick is slightly wider than the canyon (think adjustable length) and the rope is tied in the middle of the "stick" it forces the ends of the "stick" to catch the walls as you pull it back to you using the rubber ends

Clear as mud?

[DSTRBD]

Awesome! Thanks...that is a sexy looking pothole right there!!

Does everyone agree that this is in "Keeper" mode?

[CarpeyBiggs]

ha. i missed the photo of the hook. but seeing it, i'm virtually certain it will be of zero help. i just don't see it hooking on anything. sorry. a grappling hook will not catch sand. and a lip or webbing? nothing to catch on in most places i'm thinking of. in terms of throwing distance on this particular pothole, i'm pretty sure no one has ever successfully used potshots to defeat the neon pothole. the area is flat behind it for 100 yards or so, and just dry sand. it can't support the weight and potshots would just pull out...

i still think stabilizing a pole to push on would be extremely difficult, especially on sloping floors, and supporting a human on a single pole seems unlikely. maybe it would help to see what you mean.

catcher stick sounds interesting, i'd have to see one i guess. having a hard time visualizing it in a real live canyon situation. what kind of pole is it?

[CarpeyBiggs]

yes, that is keeper mode.

[DSTRBD]

See this is an "Ideal" area for the Stick idea no?
Black is the stick
Red is the rope.

[CarpeyBiggs]

interesting idea. any actual photos of the pole? weight, etc?

however, it may work on this pothole because of the geometry. it may be a very specialized solution.

[DSTRBD]

catcher stick sounds interesting, i'd have to see one i guess. having a hard time visualizing it in a real live canyon situation. what kind of pole is it?

I have just been using a tent pole (fiberglass) In "tests", Obviously something stronger is needed for body weight, the beta test works well though, In a slot similar to the one (neon) Stephen posted it catches almost everytime.

[DSTRBD]

interesting idea. it may be a very specialized solution.

Agreed 200% I am just throwing out ideas for "canyoneering ammo". Ill get a picture and video for you this weekend.

[Brian in SLC]

ever tried to drill while floating? even with a partner trying to push against you. it's just shy of impossible.

Nah, its pretty reasonable. With enough motivation, could be done solo too.

Remember, with a pointy, shallow bat hook, you don't need much of a hole...

Dare I mention the g-pick? Nah.

That's a heck of a keeper! Neat that folks have kinda figured a way past it without resorting to thuggery.

Brian in SLC
(who's resorted to thuggery on a number of occasions...heavy sigh...)

[CarpeyBiggs]

DSTRB - i am fairly confident, though it's just my gut, that any form of aluminum tent pole would not be able to support the weight to get someone out of that keeper. not sure what gauge of aluminum would be needed, but tent poles would break, or flex and pull out, i'd guess.

BDC - if you only have to drill one or two holes, it might not be unbearable. i'd love to see someone pick out of the big holes. it would take all day. especially if you did multiple keepers. but as you well know, there aren't too many keepers i've heard of being encountered that can not be solved by non-thuggish means. i know it was done commonly on the zion canyons back in the day, but other techniques are much easier now. i don't know of any potholes that can't be defeated by natural means, myself. unless, of course, people haven't learned those techniques.

but if we focus on the neon keeper, pecking it still wouldn't work. it's a severely overhanging lip.

i'd hate to be the guy that has to peck out of this one to get across...

[stefan]

image from a video by ira lewis

[CarpeyBiggs]

ha. sorry, my reading comprehension is sub-par tonight. you already mentioned the strength thing...

i am curious what strength would be needed. i know that in the past people have used catcher sticks made out of 2x4s. if you could do a lightweight pole that is still strong, i think it could work in some situations.

interesting indeed.