Canyon Registers in Arizona

[rcwild]

What's the Canyon Register all about? Is that some AZ thing?

Recent Arizona thing. Quite bazaar. In the past, beta for these canyons was shared word-of-mouth only and spread slowly. I suppose I could claim FDDWG (first documented decent by a white guy) for most of the technical WCC canyons, but never considered publishing or broad-banding.

I gave Todd Martin enough clues that he was able to find a couple of these canyons after a bit of poking around. He posted the beta on his website, then in his book. Then became shocked that traffic through the canyons increased so dramatically. Well duh!

Todd and others decided to put rosters in the canyons to get some idea of how many people were visiting. Kinda late to worry about it. Cat's out of the bag. There have now been several accidents in Sundance and Bear.

Of course there is a big demand for beta, but it always strikes me as odd that the beta peddlers don't want to acknowledge how much they have contributed to the crowds, the environmental impacts, the resulting regulations, permit systems, etc. I know, I know ... It's not the free flowing beta to blame; it's the bolts.

[Iceaxe]

Todd and others decided to put rosters in the canyons to get some idea of how many people were visiting. Kinda late to worry about it.

The registers kinda look like trash to me that should be cleaned up.... but AZ canyons are outside of my jurisdiction.

My real question would be how many visitors actually sign the registers? If this is anything like the registers the BLM places at trailheads they are not very accurate. I have a personal distaste for signing most registers and seldom sign them or else I fill them with bullshit..... It's a personal privacy issue with me. I know many others feel the same way.

The one exception is I usually try to put something pornographically witty in the register on top of Elephant Butte. I know many on this forum have enjoyed my work.

Of course there is a big demand for beta, but it always strikes me as odd that the beta peddlers don't want to acknowledge how much they have contributed to the crowds, the environmental impacts, the resulting regulations, permit systems, etc. I know, I know ... It's not the free flowing beta to blame; it's the bolts.

Which beta peddlers would that be? Every beta peddler I know understands exactly what their impact is both socially and environmentally. Or are you telling me that the various beta peddlers deal with the impacts in a method that is in conflict with your own ideals?

[Iceaxe]

If you guys want to see more canyon pics from Arizona let me know.

I'd love to see your pictures on the other two canyons, or any of the AZ canyons.


One other thought.... if it were not for those spraying beta and popularizing new areas there is a very good chance we would have the same number of canyoneers crammed into half as many canyons..... after all, there has to be somewhere for all the newly minted canyoneers churned out by all the canyon schools, boy scout troops and guide services to play. So maybe those spraying beta are spreading the enviromental and social impact? Certianly food for thought.....

[rcwild]

One other thought.... if it were not for those spraying beta and popularizing new areas there is a very good chance we would have the same number of canyoneers crammed into half as many canyons..... after all, there has to be somewhere for all the newly minted canyoneers churned out by all the canyon schools, boy scout troops and guide services to play. So maybe those spraying beta are spreading the enviromental and social impact? Certianly food for thought.....

Does this mean we actually need each other?

[Iceaxe]

Does this mean we actually need each other?

We certainly have the ability to compliment each others work....

Those visiting a new area might need to up their game and acquire new skills, while those with skills will always be looking for new places to play.

[Iceaxe]

I might start putting some surprises in those pvc containers that's not a bad idea hahaha!

When I was in high school we used to put carp in the grumpy old mans milk box that lived down the street.... among many other things.... he deserved it... he was always yelling at us for walking on his lawn or making noise when we were little kids.... when we got a little older the grumpy old man paid dearly for picking on little kids....

[ratagonia]

Bretyoce, I'm with you! Great pictures, I'd love to see more!

The more beta the better. As a relative newcomer to the sport, I wouldn't know where to go if not for published beta. Most canyoneers I have met are good people, but I've also met some who think they are the best canyoneers who ever existed, and we should be grateful peasants for being in their presence.

I understand the desire to keep canyons to oneself, but if you really want to have a successful sport, and you really want people to protect the canyons, people need to know about it. Before I started canyoneering, I wouldn't have known or cared about bolting ethics, use trails, social/environmental impact, permits, etc. Now that I have first-hand experience, I care a great deal!

Is there not enough beta out there to keep you busy for, say, TEN years?

Is there really a need for more? Is there sufficient beta out there for people to work with? (ie, in which case, more beta is not better, it is just more).

Conversationally -

Tom

[ratagonia]

Bear is about an hour and a half from North of Phoenix. The good thing about its location is there are 7 canyons basically in the same area, plus there are others that are closer to Flagstaff. That is just looking a Todd Martin's book, I would start by checking out that book. There are also other books Canyoneering Arizona by Tyler Williams that has some Technical canyons, but the majority of them are non-Tec. There are also the books by Michael R. Kelsey that cover some of the Lake Powell area. I might start putting some surprises in those pvc containers that's not a bad idea hahaha!

If you really object to the canyon register, then treat it as trash and remove it from the canyon, and mail it back to Todd.

Doing the Juvenile Delinquent trick just screws over the next couple of parties to open the register. Ha ha, funny (well, not really).

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Is there not enough beta out there to keep you busy for, say, TEN years?

Is there really a need for more? Is there sufficient beta out there for people to work with? (ie, in which case, more beta is not better, it is just more).

I think folks appreciate knowing what's out there, what has been done (and how). Allows folks to pick an adventure (based on perhaps very different criteria). Its not just being "busy". Its having a wide variety of choices.

Preventing heavy handed use might be something a certain style of beta could help?

[Iceaxe]

Interesting..... its usually the people on the "inside" who are whining about the sharing of beta.... funny how people want the gate closed AFTER they have arrived at the party....

[Felicia]

If you really object to the canyon register, then treat it as trash and remove it from the canyon, and mail it back to Todd.

Doing the Juvenile Delinquent trick just screws over the next couple of parties to open the register. Ha ha, funny (well, not really).

Tom

The concept of trashing the registers in irritating. If you don't like them, ignore them and leave them there for those that are not offended by their presence.

[oldno7]

Which do you prefer to see in a canyon----pvc tubing, for selfish monitoring--or---BOLTS...................???
There--it had to come down to BOLTS.....
It was heading there, I just hurried it a little.

[Felicia]

Which do you prefer to see in a canyon----pvc tubing, for selfish monitoring--or---BOLTS...................???
There--it had to come down to BOLTS.....
It was heading there, I just hurried it a little.

If you don't like them, ignore them and leave them there for those that are not offended by their presence.

[nonot]

Is there not enough beta out there to keep you busy for, say, TEN years?

Is there really a need for more? Is there sufficient beta out there for people to work with? (ie, in which case, more beta is not better, it is just more).

Conversationally -

Tom

Not for AZ, maybe 4 years though...

FYI for the uninformed, the canyon register typically contains a story of the "first discoverer", with a half sheet of beta - longest rappel, warning about being a technical canyon and needing gear (some people do hike without ropes, ya know), and sometimes warnings about keepers or cold water. After this is typically some type of roster sheet like you find at most trailheads. They are spray painted orange and yellow, I suppose, so that people notice them. Typically they are off to the side near the first rappel and might go unnoticed if not painted with such gaudy colors.

Oh yes, this was on its way to becoming a bolt war flame...sorry...carry on!

[stefan]

Is there not enough beta out there to keep you busy for, say, TEN years?

Is there really a need for more? Is there sufficient beta out there for people to work with? (ie, in which case, more beta is not better, it is just more).

mo' beta blues

the canyon register typically contains a story of the "first discoverer"

hmmm ...

[rcwild]

FYI for the uninformed, the canyon register typically contains a story of the "first discoverer", with a half sheet of beta ...

Only if the first discoverer is presumed to be among their group, which is very rarely the case.

My original post in this thread was not intended to be an indictment of sharing beta, but rather on the beta peddlers' hypocrisy. Most follow the same pattern -- (1) "Discover" a few canyons that were then relatively pristine. (2) Publish beta and receive accolades from the community for sharing. (3) Visitation increases, in some cases exponentially. (4) Environment is impacted and accidents/incidents increase (in some cases, regulations/permits are implemented in response). (5) Beta peddlers recognize the problems without accepting their share of the blame. (6) Fingers are pointed at other issues/causes like bolts, lack of training, Boy Scouts, poor decisions by land managers, etc. (7) To avoid similar problems, people begin making decisions regarding which canyons should be considered secret. Especially amusing when the beta peddlers themselves begin making decisions regarding which canyons to sacrifice by broad-banding and which must be kept secret.

In Arizona, the group placing the registers are referring to themselves as "the great ones". They claim first descent on every canyon they stumble upon without the slightest bit of research. While spewing beta for the canyons they determined could be sacrificed, they have made threats against people who tell anyone about the canyons they determined should be kept secret. It's ugly.

[Iceaxe]

FYI for the uninformed, the canyon register typically contains a story of the "first discoverer",

Here is some really great information about first descents....... this is a must read for all canyoneers....

First Descent? by Dave Black

[CarpeyBiggs]

In Arizona, the group placing the registers are referring to themselves as "the great ones". They claim first descent on every canyon they stumble upon without the slightest bit of research. While spewing beta for the canyons they determined could be sacrificed, they have made threats against people who tell anyone about the canyons they determined should be kept secret. It's ugly.

I would respond to your whole post, but I expect most here can read, and therefore understand, that you live in a fantasy world. No one in Arizona refers to themselves as "the great ones." If they ever did, it would be entirely in jest, and probably just to try and piss you off. The rest of this nonsense is just that, nonsense.

But thanks for yet another peek into the delusional world of Rich Carlson.

[rcwild]

I would respond to your whole post, but I expect most here can read, and therefore understand, that you live in a fantasy world. No one in Arizona refers to themselves as "the great ones." If they ever did, it would be entirely in jest, and probably just to try and piss you off. The rest of this nonsense is just that, nonsense.

The email below was copied to me. It was not addressed to me or written about me. The writer was one of the self-proclaimed "great ones".

Since someone has got to say it, allow me: _____, you pompous little snot-nosed punk. Yes you, _____, cowering in the shadows of the great ones and whimpering “Dear Sir, is my rope long enough to do the big canyons that the big boys do?” If it wasn’t for the considerable efforts of the great ones who pioneered canyons like Imsomnia, you’d probably already be dead by now. Stick to something you’re good at, like putting together pretty pictures of places that were spoon-fed to you because you don’t have the guts or the brains to find them on your own. You are a parasite with no honor, seeking cheap & easy glorification based on the accomplishments of others. Put that on your blog, jackass.

There are quite a few more of these going around. I guess I might be delusional. Maybe these emails are meant entirely in jest. Could not have been written to piss me off since I wasn't even remotely involved. None of this ugliness existed in the 18 years I was doing canyons in Arizona. Or maybe it did and I just didn't notice from my fantasy world.

[CarpeyBiggs]

hahahahahaha. are you serious????


i didn't actually believe you were totally delusional, living in a fantasy world. that was sarcasm, exaggerated for emphasis. kind of like the reference to "the great ones." but now, the more i think about it, i actually think you truly are delusional. you ACTUALLY believe, for some reason, that this makes you look better.


with motivations of spite, you take a private email that wasn't even addressed to you, and proceed to post it in a public forum. what's more, you take said email and proceed to take it completely literal. for those who don't know, its written to a young man that would probably be the last person the ACA would ever want to align themselves with. but there's just one thing. it's worth aligning with him in this instance because (ding! ding! you guessed it!) Rich Carlson has some personal beef with the AZ canyoneers (surprise surprise!) so in this particular matter, you'd rather align yourself with one of your enemy's enemies, in order to drag some people's names through the mud. and you pretend that "this never existed while you were doing canyons in arizona." give me a break. based on your posts here, and the yahoo group, your personal stake in this matter is evidence alone that you are part of the problem.


rich, i have no idea what your backstory is. i honestly don't care. but what strange bedfellows you've made for yourself in this whole scenario, eh? are you really defending this kid? and that is your evidence that the someone else is evil? the kid published a canyon after he had been asked specifically not to. a canyon that was SHARED with him, maybe even by the same canyoneers you are now defaming. somebody obviously wrote an email to him telling them how they felt. rightfully so.



but anyone who knows anything about you, the ACA, the canyons in question, and this particular "snot nosed punk" will understand that you defending this kid is laughable at best, and will ultimately result in you, him, the ACA, and anyone else who was involved looking like complete jackasses. we also know that apparently anything sent to you in private is apparently liable to end up on a public forum. very classy indeed.



unfortunately, what you have on bogley is a large lot of relative new canyoneers who don't understand what your "game" is and who else is "playing." most people will never know the backstory. shoot, i don't even know the backstory. but i do know, based on your ridiculous history, that you are just trying to score some more points in this silly game, because you think it reflects poorly on some other canyoneers. the result is that some may possibly look up to you because they don't know any better, and they get the impression that because you head some organization that hands out nice little merit badges that you are some sort of icon, someone to listen to, and worse, someone to look up to.


i will simply suggest that you are not that person.


it might also be noticeably telling that "the great ones" are absent from this discussion entirely. i imagine they have learned a lesson my immature ass is yet to. and that is, responding to you is a complete waste of time. they don't have to. they realize that anyone with ears to hear isn't paying attention to you anyways.