Using the Piranha

[p40whk]

Like Jaxx says - I'd look at the amount of friction your rappel device is providing, and possibly your rapping technique. You should be able to rappel without your hands getting hot. You may have too little friction, or may be rapping too fast (sort of inter-related). Fast, racy rappels are a whole different sport from the raps done in your usual Colorado Plateau canyons.

Yeah, I usually double line rappel using an ATC but we were trying out the Piranha on a single line and probably didn't have the friction set correctly. The rappel was 120 feet so it got pretty hot 3/4 of the way down. I've always used gloves out of habit but have never needed them before. I'm 220# and was using the Piranha at the lowest friction setting to start (which I should have been using the highest in hind sight) and it's a bit different than the ATC. We wanted to used it a few times to get used to it before our trip. I'll still carry both and if I'm not comfortable with the Piranha then I can always switch back.

[ratagonia]

Yeah, I usually double line rappel using an ATC but we were trying out the Piranha on a single line and probably didn't have the friction set correctly. The rappel was 120 feet so it got pretty hot 3/4 of the way down. I've always used gloves out of habit but have never needed them before. I'm 220# and was using the Piranha at the lowest friction setting to start (which I should have been using the highest in hind sight) and it's a bit different than the ATC. We wanted to used it a few times to get used to it before our trip. I'll still carry both and if I'm not comfortable with the Piranha then I can always switch back.

Shane - might want to split this out to a "Using the Pirana" thread...

The instructions that come with the Pirana are OK, but I notice they don't give a weight range - probably don't want to stick their neck out the way I about to do.

When trying a new device, a bottom belay is a better backup than gloves.

The three standard friction modes for the Pirana are shown on the tag. The ZERO setting involves just through the hole and into the biner; the ONE setting hooks the rope around one of the basal horns; the TWO setting involves hooking around both of the basal horns. The next "real" (Pirana only) setting above that is a LOT more friction, so does not really fit into the plan.

The next setting up from that is to add a redirect biner on your off-side leg loop and run it through that. I call that the THREE setting.
The next setting up from that is to extend the rappel device with two carabiners, and add a Z-rig carabiner to the large hole of the Pirana = FOUR setting.

For a single 8mm rope (BW Canyon Pro BROKEN IN, Imlay 8mm, Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3mm), for SHORT rappels (<80 feet) WITH a backup system:

50 to 100 lbs: Zero setting
100 to 150 lbs: One setting
150 to 200 lbs: Two setting
200 to 250 lbs: Three setting
250 up: uh, on your own, buddy!

That's the basic chart, here's the adjustments:

If you are not using any kind of backup system, you should probably go UP one setting. Better would be to use an autobloc or bottom belay as a backup system.
If you use an Imlay 9mm rope, go down one setting. Other rope diameters and brands may require different adjustments.
If you use two ropes, go down one setting.
If you are tired, cranky, wet, hypothermic, scared, or out of practice, go up one setting.
If you are using a new Canyon Pro, go up one or two settings.
If the rappel is long (>80 feet; shorter than 200 feet), go up one setting.
If the rappel is really long, then the weight of the rope counts, and you will have to make an adjustment of one setting half way down. Be ready for that.

Some ropes, when they get wet, are faster. Go up one setting. Some ropes, when they get dirty, are slower. Go down one setting.

If you are doing a guided rappel, go down one setting. If the guided rappel does not do a lot of guiding, but is mostly rappelling, don't go down one setting.
If there are interesting members of the attractive gender around, you will be tempted to go down one setting. Your brain is working poorly, go UP one setting.

You get the idea...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I'm 220# and was using the Piranha

From my personal experience... there are better rappel devices then the Piranha for large framed canyoneers.... nothing against the Piranha other then heavy weights have to dial in a lot of friction before stepping over the edge, which I don't consider "ideal".... YMMV...

[UtahAdventureGuide]

The next setting up from that is to extend the rappel device with two carabiners, and add a Z-rig carabiner to the large hole of the Pirana = FOUR setting.Tom

Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?

[p40whk]

Great write up Tom!

I did have someone on belay as I always do when trying new equipment or whenever we can get someone down to the bottom without using ropes (We use a belayer whenever it's possible even on short rappels). I started using the Pirana on the #1 setting based on your write up but after the first rappel, I moved to the #2 setting which was much better. I am using the Imlay 9mm rope but at my weight I think the #3 setting may be better just based on how it felt.

[trackrunner]

Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?

not tom but I have one. you'll have to use your imagination on how tom described extending the device. it should be obvious of the placement of the carabiner in the hole of the priana



from this article http://www.outdoorstogether.com/cany...s/rappel_z.jpg

from this discussion at the ACA forum
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=722

[ratagonia]

not tom but I have one. you'll have to use your imagination on how tom described extending the device. it should be obvious of the placement of the carabiner in the hole of the priana



from this article http://www.outdoorstogether.com/cany...s/rappel_z.jpg

from this discussion at the ACA forum
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=722

Yeah, kinda like that, but...

Unfortunate that Mike Clelland's wonderful illustration (copyrighted) is neither attributed nor linked back to the source that paid for the drawing (Rock and Ice Magazine, probably).

Tom

[mhambi]

If there are interesting members of the attractive gender around...
Tom

Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?
















Thanks for the Piranha info!

[ratagonia]

Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?



Thanks for the Piranha info!

In the rubbish bin, there are many such pictures.

[trackrunner]

Yeah, kinda like that, but...

Unfortunate that Mike Clelland's wonderful illustration (copyrighted) is neither attributed nor linked back to the source that paid for the drawing (Rock and Ice Magazine, probably).

Tom

I linked it to article and source from where it cam from. I'm not the guy pretending it to be my work or permission to reprint.

It appears to be from "Tech Tips article in Climbing Magazine June 2004 by Dylan Taylor"

[hank moon]

Other descent control tips:

Try extending the PIRANA (or other device) 12" or more from your harness, using a sling (extension length check: make sure you can still access your device for lockoffs, changeovers, etc.). An extension can make it *much* easier to control the descent. I use one whenever practical. Caution: beware of the moving rope sawing against the stationary sling, which can sever the sling and make you splat.

Also, keep both hands on the brake line as much as practical. Classic rappel hand position (one hand on the brake line, one hand on rope above the device) is poor technique*, unfortunately reinforced by technical drawings such as the one above.

*w/respect to friction management

[ratagonia]

I linked it to article and source from where it cam from. I'm not the guy pretending it to be my work or permission to reprint.

It appears to be from "Tech Tips article in Climbing Magazine June 2004 by Dylan Taylor"

I did not find attribution at the first link you provided, though I looked around a bit. I avoid visiting the ACA site for personal reasons.

Tom

[Cirrus2000]

Also, keep both hands on the brake line as much as possible. Classic rappel hand position (one hand on the brake line, one hand above the device) is silly!

Someone else who thinks like me! I mentioned this in jman's thread about his rap accident in Moab, and no one mentioned whether it seemed a good idea or a bad one.

[trackrunner]

I did not find attribution at the first link you provided

I did provide a source. here let me help you

from this article http://www.outdoorstogether.com/cany...s/rappel_z.jpg

there is the link from where it came. I provided my source. this guy/gal pretending to pass it off as his/her work may not have

[trackrunner]

Caution: beware of the moving rope sawing against the stationary sling, which can sever the sling and make you splat.

Hank with your back ground I'm curious what you think of the caution about extending too far in wet class c canyons which may cause the sling to catch something in a pool and pin you under? Is it a good warning?

thanks

[hank moon]

Hank with your back ground I'm curious what you think of the caution about extending too far in wet class c canyons which may cause the sling to catch something in a pool and pin you under? Is it a good warning?

thanks

Hey, i haven't heard of that happening, but sounds plausible. Got any tales?

Looking back to the germ of this thread, hot hand probs are greatly reduced in Class C.

[rcwild]

Hank with your back ground I'm curious what you think of the caution about extending too far in wet class c canyons which may cause the sling to catch something in a pool and pin you under? Is it a good warning?

Hey, i haven't heard of that happening, but sounds plausible. Got any tales?
Looking back to the germ of this thread, hot hand probs are greatly reduced in Class C.

Never heard of the sling used to extend rappelling device being a problem. Quite a few instances of safety lanyard, especially long daisy chains, catching on branches, rocks, etc.

Extending rappel device is probably a bigger issue in Class A/B canyons with tricky starts, i.e. over chockstone, tight crack down-climb required to weight rope, etc. Issue being the rappel device becoming stuck on top of the lip or in a crack.

[trackrunner]

Never heard of the sling used to extend rappelling device being a problem. Quite a few instances of safety lanyard, especially long daisy chains, catching on branches, rocks, etc.

hmmm I thought it was a sling, but with Rich's post, I probably heard it wrong as his list of items makes mores sense. I stand corrected.

so do I have to worry about extending with my purcell prusik then?

The three standard friction modes for the Pirana are shown on the tag. The ZERO setting involves just through the hole and into the biner; the ONE setting hooks the rope around one of the basal horns; the TWO setting involves hooking around both of the basal horns. The next "real" (Pirana only) setting above that is a LOT more friction, so does not really fit into the plan.

The next setting up from that is to add a redirect biner on your off-side leg loop and run it through that. I call that the THREE setting.

back to the original topic. with the Pirana redirect I've found the first horn redirect awkward (not the initial setup settings but additional braking setting as desribed in 2B in this Petzl manual). Awkward hand position, sometimes the rope jumps off, I always end up at the second Pirana redirect. the nice thing about the second redirect is it provides a lot more friction which can be a bad thing with too much friction.

If only one redirect is needed for extra friction I like doing the redirect off the leg loop as tom points out in his post.

YMMV

[rcwild]

so do I have to worry about my purcell prusik then?

Yes, especially in Class C with branches and rocks under water. During an ACA rendezvous in Arizona a few years back a woman slipped during a climb and went under. Her daisy chain caught on a rock and held her under for what others guessed to be one and a half minutes. One of her partners found her with his foot. Couldn't see her through the froth.

Daisy chain, PAS, Chain Reactor, Purcell Prusik ... be extremely careful if you insist on using them in Class C.

[p40whk]

Extending the rappel device is something new to me (instruction in my area is basic), what does this accomplish and what benefit do you gain from this? There's a picture of this in the PDF file linked in Trackrunner's post (#18) on page 2 bottom center of page. Also, how long should this sling be? Looks like less than a foot.

When we were using the Pirana for the first time I had the braking set at the second position under 2A of the instructions which was not enough for me at 220#. I'm not sure if the 3rd position would be much better considering my weight.