Using the Piranha

[moab mark]

Jeff,

I have an uncle who weighs about 230. I have moved him from a pirana back to a fig. 8 and have him go vertaco(sp). He struggled on a pirana getting enough friction single line unless he used the hook on the top. Then he would have problems with the rope jumping off the hook. If you come up with a way that you get comfortable I would be interested in how you set it up.

Mark

[p40whk]

Jeff,

I have an uncle who weighs about 230. I have moved him from a pirana back to a fig. 8 and have him go vertaco(sp). He struggled on a pirana getting enough friction single line unless he used the hook on the top. Then he would have problems with the rope jumping off the hook. If you come up with a way that you get comfortable I would be interested in how you set it up.

Mark

Mark, I have the exact same issue. I learned on a figure 8 and just figured the Pirana was a natural transition. I thought I was just rusty when I was having problems with it (it jumped off the hook once on me). Based on some of the posts here, it probably isn't the most ideal device for large framed guys like myself.

I still haven't tried it double line but shouldn't have to. I may keep it as a back up or sell it and pick up another ATC.

[Brian in SLC]

Also, keep both hands on the brake line as much as possible. Classic rappel hand position (one hand on the brake line, one hand on rope above the device) is poor technique, unfortunately reinforced by technical drawings such as the one above.

Commonly done, though.

I find the "guide hand" position, on the rope, above my rappel device, helps put me in good rappel body position.

With the use of autoblocks, shunts, etc, its way more common now to see folks recommend what was the guide hand to be below the rappel device now, as, its needed there to keep an autoblock/shunt from locking up.

For lower angle rappels, I like a guide hand above the device. Seems like it puts me in better balance (extending my triangle quite a bit).

Also, having free hand, the guide hand, allows me to push off on obsticles, clear tree branches, bushes, change my position to avoid loose rock, etc...

For super steep or free hanging rappels, yeah, not much use for a guide hand (other than to keep my back from gettin' worked).

So, I don't think its necessarily "poor technique" especially if you have no real need to have your "guide" hand below you.

Be interesting to see how the folks are instructed, or, what "how to" type manuals say that guide hand is deployed. I think most of the UIAGM folks are instructing rappels to use a back up like an autoblock, which makes classical use of a guide hand unneeded.

Things that make you go "hmmm..."

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Bo_Beck]

Commonly done, though. Also, having free hand, the guide hand, allows me to push off on obsticles, clear tree branches, bushes, change my position to avoid loose rock, etc...

Thats what I've always been explained. If you're comfortable with abseiling and the device and or technique you're using, then no need to ride down holding the rope above the device. Common for folks to believe that they could stop themselves by grabbing that rope! Seen many a burnt hands and fingers (even through gloves).

For super steep or free hanging rappels, yeah, not much use for a guide hand (other than to keep my back from gettin' worked)....

Instead of "riding the pig", do what I do................hang your pack off your foot; it'll keep your body position upright!

[Brian in SLC]

Thats what I've always been explained. If you're comfortable with abseiling and the device and or technique you're using, then no need to ride down holding the rope above the device. Common for folks to believe that they could stop themselves by grabbing that rope! Seen many a burnt hands and fingers (even through gloves).

Which is a shame. I think in the heat of battle, even experienced folks can screw especially this up. Tendancy is to just grab any ol' thing available. Which is why Prusik's above a rap device commonly fail to work...

I can't think of a time, starting a steep rappel especially over an obsticle, that I have both hands below me. I might not have my "guide hand" on the rope, per se, but, its helping my position greatly as I get "on rappel".

A scary scenario I think about, is, some times rappels don't go straight down. On a steep traverse, if you had both hands below you, and, were off to the side and slipped (maybe because your body position was too upright, which, I think a guide hand also helps with), and, you pendulummed, that guide hand might keep you from crashing into an obsticle.

Instead of "riding the pig", do what I do................hang your pack off your foot; it'll keep your body position upright!

That's funny, and, probably works ok!

A lot of the rappelling thing is body position. Makes it easy to see folks who aren't saavy rappellers, as they aren't in optimal position (I see them every time I drive by the Dogwood crag in Big Cottonwood, ha ha). I think a guide hand helps with body position.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Cirrus2000]

Thats what I've always been explained. If you're comfortable with abseiling and the device and or technique you're using, then no need to ride down holding the rope above the device. Common for folks to believe that they could stop themselves by grabbing that rope! Seen many a burnt hands and fingers (even through gloves).

Exactly - I figure that newbies see the rope above the device as leading to "safety", so that's what you want to hang on to if you're slipping down too fast. Better to avoid that temptation altogether, by keeping the hand off.

Instead of "riding the pig", do what I do................hang your pack off your foot; it'll keep your body position upright!

I love this idea! I fear, though, that if I girth hitched my pack around my ankle that I'd lose all circulation and be in danger of losing my foot on a long rap!

[moab mark]

Has anyone tried this for heavy fellers? Rig it for left hand and then rappel right.
I have used this once and it was nice. Gave nice friction and the rope could not jump off the hook.


What about this?


Last one?



Mark

[hank moon]

Hi Brian

I use a hand* on the rope (above DCD) now and then for balance, clearing junk out of the way, etc. Whenever it makes sense. The point I wanted to make is that the classic rappel hand position is often misused and that two hands on the brake line (relatively seldom seen) ought to be presented more by educators as a useful technique for friction management. I changed my original post to make the "poor technique" statement a bit less blankety.

I don't fully understand your idea of using the guide hand to improve body position, unless you are using it to gain stability/balance in order to improve body position. Is that what you mean?

*I do not have a dedicated "guide hand" as I often switch hands, depending on the terrain.

[Iceaxe]

Has anyone tried this for heavy fellers? Rig it for left hand and then rappel right.
I have used this once and it was nice. Gave nice friction and the rope could not jump off the hook.


What about this?


Last one?



Mark

Dang Mark.... are you trying to find ways to put more twists in the rope?

No need, the Piranha does fine on it's own.

[Brian in SLC]

I don't fully understand your idea of using the guide hand to improve body position, unless you are using it to gain stability/balance in order to improve body position. Is that what you mean?

Yeah, third leg of triangle. Longer leg = more stability. Also, seems easier to get into the right "L" position for rappelling. Think about hanging straight down from a rope on a vertical wall. With your hands at your waist (or below), walk both of your feet up the wall. Now, do it with one hand on the rope above you. Which is easier? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about...

Its pretty interesting, though, as more folks use two hands below the rappel device (for whatever reason) that you still see the guide hand much more commonly in photos, how to's, etc., above the rappel device.

Reference page 55 of DB's "Canyoneering" for "proper body position on rappel". Note use of guide hand above rappel device (step 8 as "Place your "feeling" hand around the rope about a foot above the rappel device"). Ditto Luebens basic rock climbing (Mountaineers books). Ditto Long's latest fifth edition of "how to rock climb" (see photo's in chapter on "Getting Down" and p250 "uphill, or guide, hand is used mainly for balance"). Ditto the new "Rock Climbing" how to from Stewart Green (see "Basic Rappel Skills" chapter p125, "Place your guide hand above the rappel device"). Etc etc etc.

Can anyone site a reference for not using a guide hand on the rope (above the rap device), in any instruction manual, where a back up below the rappel device is not being used? I've seen it mentioned as an option, but, very rarely do I see it either in photo's or as a primary "how to".

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[p40whk]

Can anyone site a reference for not using a guide hand on the rope (above the rap device), in any instruction manual, where a back up below the rappel device is not being used? I've seen it mentioned as an option, but, very rarely do I see it either in photo's or as a primary "how to".

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

The instruction sheet that came with the Pirana shows both hands below the rappel device (see the link on post #18 of this thread).

[hank moon]

Can anyone site a reference for not using a guide hand on the rope (above the rap device), in any instruction manual, where a back up below the rappel device is not being used? I've seen it mentioned as an option, but, very rarely do I see it either in photo's or as a primary "how to".

Seeking a reference for "not using" a hand above the device will prolly be futile, as that technique is sometimes useful. Both hands on the brake is rarely seen in photos 'cuz most people use only one hand. Why they do so is moot, but prolly more tradition than anything else. There is no good argument for always keeping a hand above the device. It wastes energy, increases rope/hand friction and exposes that hand to being severely crushed under the rope in a botched edge transition (i.e. loss of footing). I have seen this happen and it ain't pretty - especially if the edge is undercut. Extending the device helps improve balance and thus reduces the impulse to grab above the device (plus makes it more difficult - or impossible- to do so). Chalk up another plus for extensions. Ding!

[SlickRock]

Chalk up another plus for extensions. Ding!

Extensions can 1) minimize stuff from getting caught or pinched in the belay device... hair, clothes, even skin. Imagine someone free-hanging on Imlay with 60' feet to the canyon floor when their hair gets sucked into the device. Might prove hard to ascend the rope the 6" it might take to clear an ATC. Extensions, because they're positioned up higher, 2) makes it much easier to create a greater angle for braking. When a pirana is right above your crotch, is your direction of pull optimal? Ideally it should be straight down, not angled off to one side. Extensions 3) give you more rope to work with... and is much easier to make use of two hands for braking. An extension allows you to use your hands up higher to move around an object if needed while still maintaining a solid brake hand. Last, an extension 4) allows you to more easily clip the belay device around to the side of your harness.

If you don't like extending by girthing a full sling length, then double it over effectively halving the extension. That's a length I prefer when I choose to extend the device. But like everything in caving, canyoneering and climbing, adding any additional element into the mix adds points of failure. It needs to be rigged correctly.

New link to Petzl Pirana manual...

Chalk up another plus for extensions. Ding!

Extensions can 1) minimize stuff from getting caught or pinched in the belay device... hair, clothes, even skin. Imagine someone free-hanging on Imlay with 60' feet to the canyon floor when their hair gets sucked into the device. Might prove hard to ascend the rope the 6" it might take to clear an ATC. Extensions, because they're positioned up higher, 2) makes it much easier to create a greater angle for braking. When a pirana is right above your crotch, is your direction of pull optimal? Ideally it should be straight down, not angled off to one side. Extensions 3) give you more rope to work with... and is much easier to make use of two hands for braking. An extension allows you to use your hands up higher to move around an object if needed while still maintaining a solid brake hand. Last, an extension 4) allows you to more easily clip the belay device around to the side of your harness.

If you don't like extending by girthing a full sling length, then double it over effectively halving the extension. That's a length I prefer when I choose to extend the device. But like everything in caving, canyoneering and climbing, adding any additional element into the mix adds points of failure. It needs to be rigged correctly.

[ratagonia]

A new tech tip up on the Pirana, posted on CUSA Tech Tips:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/petzlpiranause/

Comment? Typos? Clarifications required?

Can discuss here or send to me direct.

Tom

[Kuya]

A new tech tip up on the Pirana, posted on CUSA Tech Tips:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/petzlpiranause/

Comment? Typos? Clarifications required?

Can discuss here or send to me direct.

Tom

Very Nice I am loving these tech tips!

[2065toyota]

Very imformative write up. Thx