Arches NP Climbing and Canyoneering Management Plan

[Felicia]

The direct link to the comment form is: http://tinyurl.com/archescomments

Please please please provide at least some comments and ask to be involved in the process.

Dilemma: I've not done any canyoneering in Arches. I've not been to Arches. I'm not sure I have much to say.

My (extensive) comments to follow (next post).

Tom

Very articulate and well presented.

[moab mark]

Did anyone attend the public meeting on the management plan?

Matt? Rebecca? Anyone?

If so, it would be helpful to hear a short report..... thanks..

Bump,

Did anyone go?

[rcwild]

Rich, why do you ask this question? Is your agenda constructive in nature or destructive?

C. Inquisitive

[Iceaxe]

Canyoneering can be done in small groups of one or two, but also easily adapts to groups of considerably large size, even twenty or thirty.

30??

I'm not sure that's a selling point and a group of 30 would be extremely rare.... just a personal thought....

Thanks for taking the time send Arches NP your comments. And thanks for sharing your comments with the forum....

Anyone else care to share their comments? Maybe Rich or Matt?

[rcwild]

In case it has not already been posted in this thread, here is a link to the Access Fund's position, which includes an editable letter: http://bit.ly/d1zZ7f

[ratagonia]

Dilemma: I've not done any canyoneering in Arches. I've not been to Arches. I'm not sure I have much to say.

Very articulate and well presented.

Thank you. You are a co-owner of Arches National Park. You should have A say. If nothing else, you could just say "I support the position of the Zion Canyoneering Coalition".

Tom

[ratagonia]

How many dues-paying members in the ZCC?

None, zero zip nada nyet. The ZCC does not have dues, and therefore has zero dues-paying members. We're just a herd of cats.

Tom

[rcwild]

None, zero zip nada nyet. The ZCC does not have dues, and therefore has zero dues-paying members. We're just a herd of cats.

Between 2002 and 2007 membership in the ZCC Yahoo Group swelled to 70. How many people were committed enough to the cause to pony up the $5.00 dues back when dues were required for membership? How many cats in your herd now?

My point in asking is that it is impossible for one organization to represent the opinions of all canyoneers. The opinions are much too diverse. The ACA has well over 5,000 members now, but we don't pretend to represent all canyoneers when it comes to divisive issues like bolts, permits, commercial guiding, etc.

You have now posted your letter on Bogley and Yahoo Canyons, but not on the ACA forums (for personal reasons). Do the opinions of canyoneers who only frequent the ACA forums not matter? When anyone asks how the canyoneering community should address issue X, the input will not be representative unless the question is posted on every canyoneering forum (there are more than three). There is certainly some overlap in membership between the forums, but there are many who will participate in group A, but not B or C. Others who will participate in A and B, but not C. Etc. No worries. Diverse population. Diverse community. Diverse tastes in forums. But don't pretend to represent the entire canyoneering community without asking the entire canyoneering community for input. And that must include the thousands of other canyoneers who don't participate in any forums (in most cases, don't even know the forums exist). Their opinions matter, too. Difficult to reach them, I know, but important if anyone is to claim they care about their opinions.

There has also been a long-standing "vocal minority" issue in the canyoneering community. Opinions on any issue can be plotted on a bell curve with very vocal individuals on the two extreme ends of the spectrum and a usually silent majority in the middle. On some issues, the voices from one end of the spectrum are much louder than the voices on the other end. The volume of those voices and/or the number of letters written cannot be equated with validity of opinion.

Go ahead and submit your letter, but don't pretend that you represent THE canyoneering community. You don't.

For purposes of accuracy, suggest you change this phrase:

"The ZCC was formed in October 2002 as the voice for technical canyoneers when working with land managers when dealing with technical-canyoneering related issues."

From "... as the voice for ..." to "... as one of several voices for ..." or even more accurately to " ... as a voice for a small herd of cats ..."

[moab mark]

Rich,

Out of curiosity what do you recommend for the new management plan in Arches?

Mark

[rcwild]

Out of curiosity what do you recommend for the new management plan in Arches?

Are you asking Rich, private citizen/canyoneer, or Rich, President of the ACA?

[Iceaxe]

Are you asking Rich, private citizen/canyoneer, or Rich, President of the ACA?

Depends.... how did you addressed your comments to the Park?

If you wrote as a representative of the ACA I would be interested in hearing the ACA's position, if they have a position on the issue....

If you wrote as private citizen Rich it would be nice to hear your personal thoughts on the issue....

[moab mark]

Depends.... how did you addressed your comments to the Park?

If you wrote as a representative of the ACA I would be interested in hearing the ACA's position, if they have a position on the issue....

If you wrote as private citizen Rich it would be nice to hear your personal thoughts on the issue....

x2

[Felicia]

Comments are being accepted until 11:59 PMT

The direct link to the comment form is: http://tinyurl.com/archescomments

OK, here is my submission:



Dear Arches Planning Team

I have not yet had the privilege of visiting Arches National Park, but as an active member of the canyoneering community I would like to present my comments regarding the Climbing and Canyoneering Management Plan. My comments are limited to the Canyoneering portion of the Management Plan as I believe that Climbing is a distinct and separate wilderness activity.

Becoming aware of the Zion Canyoneering Coalition (ZCC) in 2005, I passively watched the development of the current Management Plan that is in place in Zion National Park. I believe that lessons can be learned from the development of the Zion Management Plan.

I have read, agree with, and support the current position that the ZCC has presented to this Arches Planning Team. I believe that the Arches Planning Team can capitalize on lessons learned from the past - please use a scientific method utilizing real data and document facts to develop an acceptable Management Plan. The ZCC has valuable experience that can assist the Planning Team.

I respectively request that the Planning Team allow the participation of the ZCC in the planning process. Please allow the time and resources to incorporate public participation in developing a management plan that will garner public support and public buy-in.

Sincerely,


Felicia ...

[trackrunner]

bump please submit anything right now.

example I am apposed to burdensome quotes because the queue lines start before sundown and last all night long, permitts are obtained during the best approach hiking time, etc. what ever you want but comment now.

I ended up submitting a 3 page letter.

[Iceaxe]

I wanted to say thanks to everyone who submitted a letter to Arches NP..... if nothing else your submissions have shown that the canyoneering community is a sizable herd of cats, all moving in the same general direction, with a valuable and important voice.

[renshiwo]

Oops! Sorry I was out of town and missed the deadline...

[dinosaur]

First post on bogley. Despite my reservations, I just had to resurrect this thread.

I am a user of Shane's beta and find it to to be of immense value. Despite its "Circle of Friends" moniker, its an online guidebook-- no more, no less. I prefer to explore canyons with my friends and without the aide of a professional guide, not only for monetary reasons, but for personal satisfaction. Following written directions, a compass, and a topo map provides a certain level of satisfaction that I think most people here would understand. Faulting the purveyor of a guidebook is misplaced anger. Edward Abbey wrote about Arches and its hidden and lonely places in the 1960's....maybe we should blame him for "outing" the furnace and Drangonfly. All that can be hoped for is responsible management, but keeping secrets looks like an increasingly lost cause.

I also have been on a canyon adventure with Matt. I can attest that when he takes a dozen or more people through the Furnace in Arches that it has the impact of much fewer. Ghosting techniques, responsible rope pulls, crypto avoidance, and impact awareness are foremost in his operation. Matt is a subject matter expert on low impact desert travel. He was (is) an asset to Arches National Park. I have no doubt that Matt influenced the Moab Rondy participants in profound ways in how they view low impact canyoneering and environmental impacts on the park. Its too bad the park service doesn't view his operation with admiration instead of condemnation.

Knowing several of you on this forum I can assure you that you have more in common than you do differences.

Regards,

[moab mark]

I had forgot about this. Has anyone heard any news?

Mark

[Iceaxe]

If this works like other management plans I've been involved with the next thing you will see is the new rules carved in stone tablets when they cart them out for the final "comment period", which is really just the parks way of telling you this is how its going to be.... YMMV... or it could be different from my past experience.

[jman]

So..........????

Anxious to hear. But I have to guess, it won't be talked about till Spring 2011.