Questions about two-rope rappelling technique

[Brian in SLC]

Even half way down that last rap in Pine Creek last year, that Mammut 9mm caving rope did a really good job of making me realise what a yoyo must feel like.

The CanyonFire is much nicer in comparison, and it doesn't core-shot the first time sandstone looks at it funny.

Ahhh...it, uhh, ain't the rope...

Rappelling smoothly, the rope won't care how static or dynamic it is. Bouncy comes from pilot error and has little to do with rope. Otherwise, the climbing boards would be full of climbers complaining about "the bouncy". And...they aren't.

What's SLC local canyoneer Roger A. say? "Digital versus analog."

Also, rope tends to do better over edges when rigged double strand. Much less (let me guess, half?) chance of of a core shot, IMHO. Remember, folks who use single strand in canyons also sell rope (ha ha!).

Just teasin'.

Sorta.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

Ahhh...it, uhh, ain't the rope...

Rappelling smoothly, the rope won't care how static or dynamic it is. Bouncy comes from pilot error and has little to do with rope. Otherwise, the climbing boards would be full of climbers complaining about "the bouncy". And...they aren't.

What's SLC local canyoneer Roger A. say? "Digital versus analog."

Also, rope tends to do better over edges when rigged double strand. Much less (let me guess, half?) chance of of a core shot, IMHO. Remember, folks who use single strand in canyons also sell rope (ha ha!).

Just teasin'.

Sorta.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

BRIAN - I am shocked!

Truly shocked, and not even being sarcastic or pulling the line from Casablanca. "Static Ropes" have a wide range of characteristics, and some are "pretty bouncy" while some are "not bouncy at all". Yes, certainly technique has an awful lot to do with it and, as I have demonstrated in your presence, setting up with way too much friction is pilot error = bouncy bouncy. But, the bounciness of the rope makes a huge difference, especially when the pilot is not dialing it in smooth as silk.

Climbers don't complain about bouncy ropes because their ropes do what they are supposed to do: bounce a lot when being plummeted on. Since most climbers have never rapped on anything but a dynamic rope, why would they have any idea what they are missing?

YES, SIR, emphatically, double strand works much better when there is a cutting/abrasive edge, and in my experience the cutting effect is less than half. A rap with an abrasive edge would push even die-hard single-strander rope-merchants like myself toward using the two strands together. Or, we can celebrate the new tool in Roger's toolbox and creep creep creep... (well, much easier to just rap double strand, though the Italians were all about the creep).

"Your winnings sir"

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

I appreciate that I have a bad habit of using too much friction when I'm scared (which is often, acrophobia sucks), but I do that regardless of the rope type and yes, the Mammut stuff is definitely bouncier than the CanyonFire when so-rigged.

[sarahlizzy]

Also, when rapping on climbing rope, "too much friction" seems to be a given, even single strand in low friction mode on an ATC.

[Brian in SLC]

Yes, certainly technique has an awful lot to do with it and, as I have demonstrated in your presence, setting up with way too much friction is pilot error = bouncy bouncy. But, the bounciness of the rope makes a huge difference, especially when the pilot is not dialing it in smooth as silk.

Frightening, that was. Worst case of "bouncy bouncy" I've ever seen, in combo with the worst rope schred I've ever seen from a rappel. Scary movies. And, all that on an NFPA certified static rope from New England. Crazy. Of course, we were a bit out of it too...(that whole, not having any water thing for nearly a day when its hot out...).

Smooth rappel with no stopping or rapid starting and stopping = no bouncy. Wouldn't matter if the rope had 3 or 9% enlongation.

Funny, but, I notice lack of smooth use of a belay/rappel device in the climbing gym more than anywhere. You get a lighter person lowering a heavier person, if they aren't smooth with the lower, then, they tend to fly up off the floor. Quite common. Gym ropes tend to be fairly stiff...


Part of it is dailing in what you need for friction, personally. And, that take a bit of time/experience. Young males especially seem to find the bounds of "not enough friction" fairly quickly, sometimes with bad results...(!)

Best to have a bit of bouncy bouncy and rig to err on the side of caution, to be sure...

Cheers!

[hank moon]

note: smoothness also depends on rope condition: wet/dry/sandy/muddy, etc.

[canyoncaver]

A couple of thoughts:

Mammut may sell a rope that says "caving" on it, but that doesn't mean it's good for caving. If it's bouncy, it's not good caving rope. Most cavers (U.S.) prefer PMI, Cancord, and Bluewater. Sterling, Highline, etc. don't really seem to measure up in the abrasion resistance category. In my opinion, the only real static ropes I've used are PMI, Cancord, and the the newfangled canyon ropes I've been using lately including Imlay, Canyonator, and CanyonPro. Everything else has too much bounce for my taste. Bounce causes rope wear on sharp edges. I agree with both Brian and Tom. It is all about technique, but bouncy rope makes bad technique worse.

I too have seen New England rope get shredded from light use. Don't use it. It doesn't hold up to normal wear and tear. A group of caver friends of mine call it Boat Rope, because that's what it was originally made for. It's probably fine for tying up your schooner, but I don't like hanging from it.

Also, to Brian's question, "Why use SRT in canyons when you use DRT for everything else?" (paraphrased)

This question clearly comes from a climbing perspective. From a caving perspective, the question makes more sense in reverse.

[hank moon]

Bouncy rope works fine for EURO caving, keeping in mind that most Euro cavers rig to avoid sharp edges and abrasion using rebelay technique. Bounce is fun and keeps forces down in case of rebelay failure. Of course, bouncy euro semi-static ropes totally SUCK for CP canyoneering and/or US-SRT (aka IRT).

New England makes a great rope, actually, and shares boat-rope roots with all of the other companies you mentioned. PMI is a BW spin-off, Highline is PMI spin-off, and so on. I like the fact that many of these companies have their roots in the ocean - the marine environment is by far the harshest proving ground for rope. Continuous soaking, salt, sun exposure, cyclic loading, crazy high forces, etc.

[Bo_Beck]

What I learn each day! I had always thought that what "Static", "Low Stretch" and "High Stretch" ropes did were to stretch "elongate" and then "rebound", and the person "load" would bounce as an effect? Last time I dropped one of my ropes, it just went "whop!!!" when it hit? It didn't bounce at all?????? I need to get out and test all my ropes again to see if they bounce! Think I'll head up to Zions (stop in Herkin for coffee first) to test 'em' out!

[canyoncaver]

Bo: I always figured they pronounced it Herkin just so it would rhyme with La Verkin.

Hank: New England may make a great rope, but I haven't seen it. The KMIII is definitely not it.

[ratagonia]

What I learn each day! I had always thought that what "Static", "Low Stretch" and "High Stretch" ropes did were to stretch "elongate" and then "rebound", and the person "load" would bounce as an effect? Last time I dropped one of my ropes, it just went "whop!!!" when it hit? It didn't bounce at all?????? I need to get out and test all my ropes again to see if they bounce! Think I'll head up to Zions (stop in Herkin for coffee first) to test 'em' out!

Silly Bo. Coffee in Herkin? Get REAL!

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Silly Bo. Coffee in Herkin? Get REAL!

Fer rills, come find out...

Perks Espresso & Smoothies
1120 W State St, Hurricane, UT 84737

[Bo_Beck]

Bo: I always figured they pronounced it Herkin just so it would rhyme with La Verkin.

Problem with this is that I believe it's La Verkin because they couldn't pronounce the spanish name "La Virgin". If they could have pronounced this, then Hurricane today would have been pronounced Heercun!

Hank: New England may make a great rope, but I haven't seen it. The KMIII is definitely not it.

We (Zion SAR) have been using KMIII's for several years now and they are the best we've used to date. When I first started on the team 14 years ago we used PMI Max Wear's initially, then went to EZ Bends. We also tried out the Petzl Vectors, but found that so far with the KMIII's there has been less sheath slippage and just the right amount of elongation as compared to what we used to use.

[canyoncaver]

Well, to each his own I suppose. Glad to hear that the KMIII's work well for something. Using them in caves, I have found that they are dangerously non-abrasion resistant. We get a lot more life out of PMI Pit rope (max-wear) The KMIII needs to be padded in places that the PMI wouldn't even bat an eye at.

[hank moon]

yah, it's that IRT thing again...

[guaps]

For the canyons mentioned (add Pine Creek), the ideal set for a small group might be 2 x 120 footers and 1 x 200 footer. You might have a 200 foot retired climbing rope to use for the long raps in Behunin, and thus don't really need to buy a 200'er.
:

Question about this: I've been reading for the last few days trying to figure out the technique one would use to do a 165 ft rap (Behunin's biggest rap) with one 200 ft rope and two 120 ft ropes. My best guess is below, but can someone explain that to me?

To do double rope, I would need two 165 ft ropes. I don't see how you could do it otherwise.

To do single rope, my guess is you use a biner block on the 200 ft rope, then tie the two 120ft ropes together and then tie them to the biner block and use them to retrieve everything. Am I close?

I'm about to go buy my ropes, so I'm trying to figure out what to buy. Like you said ratagonia - I don't want to climb on my good climbing ropes after they have been used for this trip. Plus, the guys I'm doing this trip with are sharing the cost of the ropes, so I'll just buy new rope for this trip.

[oldno7]

Start with 2-200's.. They shorten up over time.

[ratagonia]

Be sure to check out this page, too:

http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

Tom

[moab mark]

Be sure to check out this page, too:

http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

Tom

When did you come out with the new site? Nice. Drove by your house today, see you fixed the headlight on your clean one owner.

[ratagonia]

When did you come out with the new site? Nice. Drove by your house today, see you fixed the headlight on your clean one owner.

Man, ya shoulda knocked on the door - I need the entertainment!

Well, the new site is far from finished, but I don't seem to be finishing it real quick so... Might as well let the cat out of the bag while it's still hissing and scratching.

Tom