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Thread: Questions about two-rope rappelling technique

  1. #1

    Questions about two-rope rappelling technique

    I stumbled onto this site last January, and the trip reports look so fun, I decided I had to try this. I am going on my first real canyoneering trip at the end of the summer. There are four of us going, and two of us have a decent amount of experience climbing, so I am comfortable with most of the equipment and knots I’ll need to do the canyons we are planning (Zion – Subway, Mystery, Behunin). I think I’m comfortable judging the quality/dependability of the anchors for the rappels since I’ve done similar assessments on many of the climbs I’ve done that were bolted or I had to place my own protection.

    99% of the climbing I have done has been small (100 ft or less) single pitch climbs where I only needed one rope or bouldering (no rope). So I have a couple questions about how you do the rapps.

    I think I understand the basics of a two rope rappel - tie two ropes together, put it through a rappel ring, and feed both ropes through your rappel device. I read Tom’s Utah Canyoneering guide and Bill’s Canyoneering Primer over on Climb-Utah.com. But I have seen a lot of pics here where two strands of rope are on the face of the rock, but the person is only using one for his/her rappel. The second rope looks slack, so it’s not anchored to the bottom in any way.

    For example, there are several good ones on sarahlizzy’s recent trip report. (Very cool pics by the way!)

    In these photos, you can see exactly what I’m talking about. The unused half of the rope is obviously slack, so I don’t think it’s anchored to anything.



    So here are my questions:

    How is the rope attached/anchored at the top so the slack end of the rope doesn’t pull through the rappel ring?

    And how would you retrieve your rope once you reached the bottom with that set up?

    Do the first few people rappel using one strand, and then the last person use the double rope rappel?

    Thanks for your help/patience!

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  3. #2
    Ya baby!!! A question.

    What they are using is a biner block. The rope is blocked against the rapide or ring so that it won't pull through. Look carefully at the second picture you posted where the rope goes throught the rapide. You can see the caribiner but not the knot that is stopping the rope from sliding through. When you are done rappelling, you simply pull the rope from the blocked side and the free end just pulls through like a double rope rappel. I guess the last person could use both ropes but I don't think anyone really does.

    Many advantages to a biner block. One big one is that you can sent the length of the rap so that you don't have to have a ton of rope to coil or bag when you are done.
    Life is Good

  4. #3
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guaps View Post
    How is the rope attached/anchored at the top so the slack end of the rope doesn’t pull through the rappel ring?
    a carabiner block, or knot block, or another type of block, allows someone to rappel (Abseil) single rope technique SRT. where as it sounds like you are more familiar with double rope technique DRT.

    Quote Originally Posted by guaps View Post
    And how would you retrieve your rope once you reached the bottom with that set up?
    pull on the none rappel side

    Quote Originally Posted by guaps View Post
    Do the first few people rappel using one strand, and then the last person use the double rope rappel?
    can. but it really depends, last person rigs it based of many factors including rope pull. usually if set up SRT I'll just go SRT instead of DRT


    but be cautioned since you have no experience with SRT and this will be your first time canyoneering this is not the place to start using new techniques. stick with DRT

  5. #4
    Very cool! The only ropes I have are my climbing ropes, so I was going to go buy two 9mm static ropes for this trip. But if I used a biner block, I could do this with one rope and some p-cord tied to the biner to recover my rope. Is that true?

    That would be awesome, and save me $100. Thanks!

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by guaps View Post
    Very cool! The only ropes I have are my climbing ropes, so I was going to go buy two 9mm static ropes for this trip. But if I used a biner block, I could do this with one rope and some p-cord tied to the biner to recover my rope. Is that true?

    That would be awesome, and save me $100. Thanks!
    Possible, but not advisable. People carrying just enough rope for the rappel and thin (cheap) pull cord for pull downs are leaving themselves with very few options. If your real rope is compromised, will you finish the canyon rappelling on your 6mm pull cord? I hope not. If someone needs help while rapping on your real rope, will you rap down to help them on the 6mm? I hope not. Will you rig a haul system to get them up with that 6mm? I hope not.
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
    YouTube Channel: CanyonsCrags

  7. #6
    BTW ... the top photo shows the pull side of the rope deployed down the wall. Not sure about the bottom photo.

    The side of the rope that is not being used for rappel should be kept on top, in the rope bag, until the last person comes down -- UNLESS you have it secured at the anchor. There have been a couple of accidents involving people rappelling on the wrong side of the rope. So easy to avoid with proper rope deployment and rigging.
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
    YouTube Channel: CanyonsCrags

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by rcwild View Post
    Possible, but not advisable. People carrying just enough rope for the rappel and thin (cheap) pull cord for pull downs are leaving themselves with very few options. If your real rope is compromised, will you finish the canyon rappelling on your 6mm pull cord? I hope not. If someone needs help while rapping on your real rope, will you rap down to help them on the 6mm? I hope not. Will you rig a haul system to get them up with that 6mm? I hope not.
    All great points. Especially since we are new to this, I'll get the extra rope.

  9. #8
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guaps View Post
    Very cool! The only ropes I have are my climbing ropes, so I was going to go buy two 9mm static ropes for this trip. But if I used a biner block, I could do this with one rope and some p-cord tied to the biner to recover my rope. Is that true?

    That would be awesome, and save me $100. Thanks!
    question what are you going to do if stick your rope? rap and use your p-cord (para cord I assume)? I'd advice against para cord. Sand stone canyons could potentially damage para cord quickly and are not intended for life support activites. use a real strength rated cord. for you since this is your first time I'd advice to use a real rope not cord. Edit: Rich gave great additional advice on pull cord consideration

    some thread you need to read.

    pull cords
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27128

    blocks
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...-or-Knot-Block

    SRT vs DRT
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...ht=single+rope

    Rigginng
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37658

    And since this is your first canyon and first time attempting new techiques I'd advice to stick with what you are use to, DRT. the below stories these peopole had more SRT than you but still not enough practice. perhaps KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid is the best for you.

    I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15131

    Heaps Accident
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7204

    Pine Creek Accident
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13057

    Englestead Accident
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17627

    Pine Creek: SAR in Zion
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8285

  10. #9
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcwild View Post
    BTW ... the top photo shows the pull side of the rope deployed down the wall. Not sure about the bottom photo.

    The side of the rope that is not being used for rappel should be kept on top, in the rope bag, until the last person comes down -- UNLESS you have it secured at the anchor. There have been a couple of accidents involving people rappelling on the wrong side of the rope. So easy to avoid with proper rope deployment and rigging.
    good point Rich. here is a pic of one way to secure the pull rope to the anchor stolen from Tom's rave site located here. http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/indexeng2.htm

    http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/eng10.jpg

    didn't use [img] tags because I thought it may be too large for the window

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rcwild View Post
    BTW ... the top photo shows the pull side of the rope deployed down the wall. Not sure about the bottom photo.
    Since I took those photos, I can clarify this.

    The first photo shows the last person on rap, hence the pull cord deployed. The second photo does not have the pull cord deployed - there is a rope bag just out of shot.

    And thank you for the kind words, guaps :)

  12. #11
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trackrunner View Post
    good point Rich. here is a pic of one way to secure the pull rope to the anchor stolen from Tom's rave site located here. http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/indexeng2.htm

    http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/eng10.jpg

    didn't use [img] tags because I thought it may be too large for the window
    Additional tech tips on these subjects can be found here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/ and here:

    http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/index.php

    Also, the canyons you mention are primarily dry. You certainly COULD use old climbing ropes on them. I would not lead on rope used for doing canyons. Then again, you should also throw in Pine Creek while you are here, and that is usually wet. For the canyons mentioned (add Pine Creek), the ideal set for a small group might be 2 x 120 footers and 1 x 200 footer. You might have a 200 foot retired climbing rope to use for the long raps in Behunin, and thus don't really need to buy a 200'er.

    You might do Lower Fridge as a test trip for Behunin. Couple-a long raps, easy access, short canyon. Might do before doing Pine Creek.

    Then again, I AM supposed to encourage people to buy rope...

    Tom

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sarahlizzy View Post
    Since I took those photos, I can clarify this.

    The first photo shows the last person on rap, hence the pull cord deployed. The second photo does not have the pull cord deployed - there is a rope bag just out of shot.
    I'll echo the above...great photo's!

    Curious, though, the "pull cord" in at least one of the pictures above looks like its actually the regular rappel line? Since it doesn't appear to be rigged for contingency, why rappel single strand?

  14. #13
    The thought of leading a rope that has been used in anger in a canyon is ... not comforting! Last year I bought a reel of Mammut caving 9mm SRT rope - it core shorted after only four canyons (two of which were only the Subway and Keyhole which are comparatively gentle on ropes).

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    I'll echo the above...great photo's!

    Curious, though, the "pull cord" in at least one of the pictures above looks like its actually the regular rappel line? Since it doesn't appear to be rigged for contingency, why rappel single strand?
    Thank you!

    Single strand is a personal preference. I know there are pros and cons to each method, and that advocates of each can get quite entrenched in their position, so I shall leave it at that

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by sarahlizzy View Post
    Single strand is a personal preference. I know there are pros and cons to each method, and that advocates of each can get quite entrenched in their position, so I shall leave it at that
    Fair enough (!)...

    Still curious though...some of you guys rock climb, eh? When you rappel rock climbing, is it double strand or single? And, why the difference? (I'm wondering why is a dry canyon rappel any different than rappelling a rock climb)

    Yeah, we're entrenched...ha ha. But, I'd like to think that some of us at least have an open mind.

    For instance, rock climbing last weekend, let's see, out of the 5 times I rappelled, 2 were single rigged from a knot block, and, the other two were double. So, we are "semper gumby" (always flexible).

    Cheers,

    -Brian in SLC

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC View Post
    Fair enough (!)...

    Still curious though...some of you guys rock climb, eh? When you rappel rock climbing, is it double strand or single? And, why the difference? (I'm wondering why is a dry canyon rappel any different than rappelling a rock climb)

    Yeah, we're entrenched...ha ha. But, I'd like to think that some of us at least have an open mind.

    For instance, rock climbing last weekend, let's see, out of the 5 times I rappelled, 2 were single rigged from a knot block, and, the other two were double. So, we are "semper gumby" (always flexible).
    I only do single pitch sport climbing thus far, and haven't had much need to rappel, but when I do it's usually double line from a threaded bolt, and I hate it! If I carried a second screw gate I might be tempted to block, but I don't.

    Furtehrmore, its only usually 10-20 metres, there is nobody else up there, and the alternative is to be lowered off by my belayer.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Additional tech tips on these subjects can be found here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/ and here:

    http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/index.php

    Also, the canyons you mention are primarily dry. You certainly COULD use old climbing ropes on them. I would not lead on rope used for doing canyons. Then again, you should also throw in Pine Creek while you are here, and that is usually wet. For the canyons mentioned (add Pine Creek), the ideal set for a small group might be 2 x 120 footers and 1 x 200 footer. You might have a 200 foot retired climbing rope to use for the long raps in Behunin, and thus don't really need to buy a 200'er.

    You might do Lower Fridge as a test trip for Behunin. Couple-a long raps, easy access, short canyon. Might do before doing Pine Creek.

    Then again, I AM supposed to encourage people to buy rope...

    Tom
    Thanks for the links and especially the tip on Little Fridge. I'll look into that canyon. You must be THE Tom of Tom's Utah Canyoneering Guide that I've spent so many nights reading. Thanks for all the great info!

    Quote Originally Posted by trackrunner View Post
    some thread you need to read.

    pull cords
    http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27128

    ...
    I just spent the last hour and a half reading most of those threads you posted -thanks for all the great reading. The thought of someone clipping into the wrong side of a biner block makes my stomach turn. It's good to understand a little better the pros/cons of those techniques. Some of the techniques discussed in there seem a bit overly complicated - like that releasable figure 8 rats-nest style knot just makes me nervous. I like knots I can look at and see pretty quickly if it's tied right. I'll take the KISS route and stick with what I know.

  19. #18
    The releasable 8 is actually really good for getting several folks through a canyon quickly AND having options if something goes wrong on rappel.
    Life is Good

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by sarahlizzy View Post
    The thought of leading a rope that has been used in anger in a canyon is ... not comforting! Last year I bought a reel of Mammut caving 9mm SRT rope - it core shorted after only four canyons (two of which were only the Subway and Keyhole which are comparatively gentle on ropes).
    There's also the issue that climbing rope or even "static" like Mammut caving rope is quite bouncy when you're near the end of a 165' rap.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by zoeimogen View Post
    There's also the issue that climbing rope or even "static" like Mammut caving rope is quite bouncy when you're near the end of a 165' rap.
    Even half way down that last rap in Pine Creek last year, that Mammut 9mm caving rope did a really good job of making me realise what a yoyo must feel like.

    The CanyonFire is much nicer in comparison, and it doesn't core-shot the first time sandstone looks at it funny.

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