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Thread: Rescue in Zero Gravity

  1. #1

    Rescue in Zero Gravity

    From Mark Rosen

    A boy scout got stuck in Zero G last Wednesday. This is what I have learned from the group leader. I relate the story so that we can learn from the experience and not to condemn anyone involved. I've had members of groups I have led become stuck and I'm not trying to throw stones but would like to use the experience to start a discussion of ideas on how to free someone that is stuck. I know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but lets just assume they are stuck now what do you do?

    First, the story as related to me. I was not there:

    "On Wednesday June 16, 2010 a group of Venture Scouts hiked the canyon known as Zero Gravity (aka Little Iron Wash) in the San Rafael Swell. All went well until the exit. We had one large boy (estimated weight is about 265

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    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Woah, thanks for posting this.
    ●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
    ●Hiking Treks (my younger brother's website): hiking guides @ www.thetrekplanner.com
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  4. #3
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    And... when leading a group of boy scouts or equivalent, bring a rope whether the canyon requires it or not. Remember the gruesome death in Knotted Rope a couple years ago? Hard to do a rescue without any gear. A big group can carry gear.

    2 cents...

    Tom

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    And... when leading a group of boy scouts or equivalent, bring a rope whether the canyon requires it or not. Remember the gruesome death in Knotted Rope a couple years ago? Hard to do a rescue without any gear. A big group can carry gear.

    2 cents...

    Tom
    X2

  6. #5
    How the canyon got it's name should be a warning.....

    How did Zero Gravity get it's name? The first time we canyoneered the slot I dropped through the exit bombay a little too early and became wedged between the canyon walls. I was stuck at my chest, but my feet were hanging down into space about 10-feet above the ground. I was suspended in air and looked like Wily E. Coyote running in space, or zero gravity. After my friends finished laughing and making fun of my predicament they helped me escape the trap.

  7. #6
    All I'm going to say is that scout leader used poor judgment that put the lives of the group at risk. He should be removed from that position. WTF are scouts doing in that canyon, or any canyon for that matter.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaun_Jablome View Post
    From Mark Rosen

    A boy scout got stuck in Zero G last Wednesday. This is what I have learned from the group leader ...
    it is poor forum etiquette to post something, especially an account posted by an individual, from one forum to another without the permission of the original poster.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaun_Jablome View Post
    In hind sight, he was too large to attempt this canyon but I thought he could do it and that it would be a great experience for him – conquer a difficult canyon. I still think it turned out well but not in the way I first expected. "


    Poor choice of wording IMO.

    Great story though, I almost thought it was fake reading about "human pyramids" and such. Would love to see some pics.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  10. #9
    I am glad you got him out without significant injury. Never have been there, but trying to imagine the scenario leads me to a thought that maybe you tried? You suggested that you were given a "4:1" MA? I then read that this didn't work? There must've been an anchor above the boy? Anyway I get the feeling that this was a pre-rigged "Aztec" or 4x5? Maybe by using a 5' sling "horseshoe" under the boys armpits with the connection to the MA in front of his face, swapping the MA so that it was a 5:1 with an upward pull by you (pulling force upcanyon or up-chimney) and being certain you have a progress ratchet capturing any progress, you could have also extended the pulling with some webbing to the folks above? Just a thought and maybe way off track, or maybe even tried? Anyway...glad all worked out!

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahAdventureGuide View Post
    All I'm going to say is that scout leader used poor judgment that put the lives of the group at risk. He should be removed from that position. WTF are scouts doing in that canyon, or any canyon for that matter.
    I've taken my scouts through that canyon, as well as the laurels from our ward. I've also taken our scouts and Laurels through Chop rock. Not to mention I have taken the scouts through Heaps, Full Imlay, Several Powell canyons Etc. Etc. Maybe that's why I don't see the problem should he have been better prepared of course. I'm not following your logic on this.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
    I've taken my scouts through that canyon, as well as the laurels from our ward. I've also taken our scouts and Laurels through Chop rock. Not to mention I have taken the scouts through Heaps, Full Imlay, Several Powell canyons Etc. Etc. Maybe that's why I don't see the problem should he have been better prepared of course. I'm not following your logic on this.
    I think it's valid to assume that most scout masters don't have your technical skill, nor access to your technical gear. Hell, around here they're barely volunteers, being told by the church that you are the new scout master is what we, in the army, would call being 'vollen-told'. As in 'thanks, you just volunteered to clear this mine field now get your ass out there'. A guy assigned to the scouts might have less enthusiasm (god only knows his skill level) than a volunteer who chooses to get involved.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I think it's valid to assume that most scout masters don't have your technical skill, nor access to your technical gear. Hell, around here they're barely volunteers, being told by the church that you are the new scout master is what we, in the army, would call being 'vollen-told'. As in 'thanks, you just volunteered to clear this mine field now get your ass out there'. A guy assigned to the scouts might have less enthusiasm (god only knows his skill level) than a volunteer who chooses to get involved.
    Fair enough, I still don't think the assessment of why would anyone take scouts into any canyon is fair or accurate assessment. Was he prepared enough with gear or experience obviously not. This is a huge problem around here in provo, I run into scout leaders regularly lately, that have been through an 8 hour or so training course here locally and are being told go ahead your ready to take boy scouts canyoneering. Every single one that I have asked questions of has revealed that they have no business taking themselves through a canyon let alone boys, as a quasi guide. Still the assertion that no one should be taking boys through any canyon is a very big stretch.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey View Post
    Still the assertion that no one should be taking boys through any canyon is a very big stretch.
    X2

    Canyoneering is a fantastic activity for the 16-18 year old Venture Scouts. I have taken many, many Ventures through canyons. Not all canyons are created equally. Not all leaders are created equally. It is the leaders that need training and experience and wisdom.

    I do remember when Shane showed us this little gem, he asked us what we thought the rating should be. I remember our discussion that a straight 3 would be accurate except for the bombay. We discussed that a 4 would be too much but a 3R or 3PG-13 would be appropriate. The bombay is, or can be a significant challenge depending on body size, training, experience and gear, to name a few.
    Life is Good

  15. #14

    Stuck in same canyon

    We had a canyoneer stuck in the same canyon last month - it was pretty terrifying (it was my old man.) We we are all wearing harnesses, and we were able to jam him back up the final section and then use the 'bomb bay' method. Took us about 45 minutes.

  16. #15
    you don't really sound very thankful that we came to your rescue. Oh and the guy who wrote this did not do any work to get the kid out. My friend did all the work!! Don't write what didn't happen! I should know cause i was the one who got the rest of your kids out who ascended!!

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Conner810 View Post
    you don't really sound very thankful that we came to your rescue. Oh and the guy who wrote this did not do any work to get the kid out. My friend did all the work!! Don't write what didn't happen! I should know cause i was the one who got the rest of your kids out who ascended!!
    *high five* And good job on getting those guys out!

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Conner810 View Post
    you don't really sound very thankful that we came to your rescue. Oh and the guy who wrote this did not do any work to get the kid out. My friend did all the work!! Don't write what didn't happen! I should know cause i was the one who got the rest of your kids out who ascended!!
    I think Juan is telling the story he heard 2nd hand. He isn't the guy that was there. Which I am forced to agree with Stefan is in poor taste not having permission. I for one, would love to hear your side of it though. Set the record straight? But maybe this is one of those threads we should let die, unless the actual people involved want to talk about it. Tough call.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  19. #18

    the leader

    I was a bit surprised to find this account posted here. I gave it to someone upon request to use a a training tool for others. I am happy to be an example (even if it is of what not to do). the description is intentionally clinical as I wanted to keep emotion out and just state the facts as I saw them so this could be a useful training tool. it is here now so hopefully people can learn from it.

    First and foremost:
    To the crew of S&R and Sheriffs I am truly greatful. They got our boy out, got the boys from upcanyon out, got the group behind us out. i do not know what we would've done if they had not showed up. You were awesome. Thank you.

    The group behind us was wonderful as well. They helped as much as they could with out stuck boy and helped get the rest of the boys out with them.

    Clearly, I made some errors in judgement and execution. I admit it, I will own those mistakes.
    • on this trip we did not plan on doing any technical canyons as i have neither the gear nor the experience to do them safely and successfully. I do have enough experience to lead a group in places like Ding/Dang, Oderville, and (I thought) Zero G but I should have had another leader with experience in this area.
    • I overestimated our boy's ability to to the canyon. I knew the exit would be a tough spot, but I honestly thought he cold do it. Part of my role as a scout leader is to challenge these boys, give them tough things to try. they benefit when they succeed. I wanted them to gain something from this trip.
    • I was unable to think clearly enough early enough to come up wth another solution...I did not even think of trying to pull him straight out. I think I could've got in position using the webbing and pulled but I am just not sure how. I think the soap the EMT brought helped tremendously. Without it I am not sure our boy would've popped out so easily.
    • I should've brought more gear. we had a few lengths of webbing for hand lines and ashort rope. We needed more when our boy got stuck.
    hopefully others can learn from this experience and avoid another S&R call in this canyon.

  20. #19
    I was in the group behind the scouts and just to clarify, we got ourselves out of the canyon. We had four of our people up on top who threw a rope down so that we could ascend out. We did not use any of Search and Rescue's gear. The reason we were in the canyon so long is because Search and Rescue was going to use our rope, which they never did, and told us not to hold off using it in case they needed it.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jb56chevy View Post
    I was a bit surprised to find this account posted here. I gave it to someone upon request to use a a training tool for others. I am happy to be an example (even if it is of what not to do). the description is intentionally clinical as I wanted to keep emotion out and just state the facts as I saw them so this could be a useful training tool. it is here now so hopefully people can learn from it.

    First and foremost:
    To the crew of S&R and Sheriffs I am truly greatful. They got our boy out, got the boys from upcanyon out, got the group behind us out. i do not know what we would've done if they had not showed up. You were awesome. Thank you.

    The group behind us was wonderful as well. They helped as much as they could with out stuck boy and helped get the rest of the boys out with them.

    Clearly, I made some errors in judgement and execution. I admit it, I will own those mistakes.
    • on this trip we did not plan on doing any technical canyons as i have neither the gear nor the experience to do them safely and successfully. I do have enough experience to lead a group in places like Ding/Dang, Oderville, and (I thought) Zero G but I should have had another leader with experience in this area.
    • I overestimated our boy's ability to to the canyon. I knew the exit would be a tough spot, but I honestly thought he cold do it. Part of my role as a scout leader is to challenge these boys, give them tough things to try. they benefit when they succeed. I wanted them to gain something from this trip.
    • I was unable to think clearly enough early enough to come up wth another solution...I did not even think of trying to pull him straight out. I think I could've got in position using the webbing and pulled but I am just not sure how. I think the soap the EMT brought helped tremendously. Without it I am not sure our boy would've popped out so easily.
    • I should've brought more gear. we had a few lengths of webbing for hand lines and ashort rope. We needed more when our boy got stuck.
    hopefully others can learn from this experience and avoid another S&R call in this canyon.
    Thanks for sharing. Must have been a very difficult experience for all of you involved. I am glad no one was seriously hurt.
    Life is Good

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