Canyon Graffiti in Birch Hollow June 22, 2010

[Iceaxe]

Thanks Jeff

I had an awesome scoutmaster when I was a kid. I learned a lot of cool stuff like rock climbing, backpacking, whitewater rafting, kayaking, yada,yada.... I owe that man a lot and I still think of him whenever I'm in the outdoors using a skill he taught me.

[Cirrus2000]

Jeff, I can't help but think that some of your post was directed at me, since I have been vocal elsewhere on the forum (nothing to do with the issue posted in this thread) about my disagreement with the BSA and their "sponsoring groups". There has been a lot of discussion on this issue in other threads.

I think, however, that you are conflating the discussions elsewhere with the topic in this thread.

For one thing, scroll back through this thread, and carefully read everyone's responses. I don't notice a lot of people "throwing such big rocks". Some people are very upset - even irate - about the actions referenced here. Someone mentioned that he is wondering whether "great leaders" are a minority in scouts. Is this really what prompted your post?

[QUOTE]However, comments made by many in this group have gone way beyond damage to the walls in Birch Hollow and into areas where personal biases towards the LDS faith and the BSA seem to be the overriding theme. I find it interesting to compare the group response to this situation versus the recent responses to the posts regarding the two individuals who spent the night Sandthrax due to extremely poor planning and judgment. I can only imagine the response from the group if it was a Scout group who were stranded after making such poor decisions. I

[xxnitsuaxx]

I'm with Kev. Your argument may have its merits, but not here and not now.

[Cirrus2000]

I started this morning with Bogley, and have since been to Yahoo and ACA. I see that Jeff's post was over on Yahoo, too, and also quoted on the ACA forum. So apparently, the post was not merely a reply to this particular thread. This kind of makes more sense, in that it's a reply to more than what is simply stated here.

It's an interesting conversation all around, and tough to synthesize all of the comments around the internet into a coherent discussion.

[restrac2000]

I saw the same thing in hindsight. Though I thought the Yahoo forum wasn't over the top either, these sort of threads can carry a cumulative affect from previous comments. Dredge had a spirited post, which is understandable when constantly being judged by the choices of others; don't envy the uphill battle that the good scout leaders sometimes have.

[Scott Card]

Jeff, I couldn't have said it better. Thanks for poking your head in here.

[ratagonia]

I started this morning with Bogley, and have since been to Yahoo and ACA. I see that Jeff's post was over on Yahoo, too, and also quoted on the ACA forum. So apparently, the post was not merely a reply to this particular thread. This kind of makes more sense, in that it's a reply to more than what is simply stated here.

It's an interesting conversation all around, and tough to synthesize all of the comments around the internet into a coherent discussion.

Modern 2010 version of a "thread on a forum", includes "all other threads on the same topic on other forums". Get with the plan, Stan!

[Jaxx]

Well, since my family and I are not allowed inside (unless we make false professions of faith) I guess I just have to do what I can outside your group.

I am a little confused but I think I see where you are coming from. Are you referring to "allowed inside" as in, inside the scout troop, or in the church? I think troop so I will reply off that.
Any boy is welcome to join an LDS sponsored troop. I have 2 boys who do not belong to the LDS faith. We are happy to have them along on trips. We still say prayers and do religious stuff but we don't make them say prayers or do anything they don't feel comfortable doing. We try our hardest not to let them feel left out and pay special attention to their needs. We would never tell anyone that they weren't welcome to come back just because of their religious beliefs.

I suppose I could try to re-invent the wheel by creating a Scouts-like group that doesn't exclude people based on their lack of religious beliefs, or their sexuality, but you know, I honestly don't think I'm up to that.

Religion has never stopped anyone from being a part of our troop. Because our troop is sponsored by the LDS faith we have rules that run along our beliefs. Having a gay leader creates other complications in the troop. It would be similar to having a woman involved in the troop. Could be problems. Why create that dynamic or worry? Other than the gay rule the BSA will let anyone sponsor a troop. You do not have to be religious in any way. A city, person, or store could sponsor a troop. Not alot of people are willing to put the time and money into scouting that it requires. That is probably why you don't find more troops that aren't backed by a church whether it was LDS or other church.

People in groups can cause trouble. Scouts are no different. I have seen or been (as a boy) some of that trouble with scouts. Now as a leader I keep tabs on my boys and explain some of the rules before we do an outing. We teach leave no trace ethics in scouts.
Sometimes they do stuff you would think they would know not to do because of common sense. On our last trip this past weekend to raft the green river a boy was shooting rocks with his slingshot at a rabbit. What parent lets their 12 year old bring a slingshot on a campout? I had to pull him aside and explain that if he had killed the animal then I would have made him dress and eat it. I taught the boys that there is no point in killing a creature just for the fun of it. I also talked to the rest of the boys about standing up and being the person that says "Hey don't do that, it's wrong" when someone is doing something you know they shouldn't, even if it is against the flow of the group. I never would have thought that I would need to explain this to the boys but it happened.
We teach the boys alot of important stuff that they will use as adults and responsible dads. Lessons that they might not get anywhere else. Scouts was a vital part of how I grew up and learned to love the outdoors. I voluntold because I want to pass that on to other young men. Some of the boys come in not knowing how to cook pancakes and leave being able to buy, cook, and serve a full meal. It is great to see the progression in a young man.

Now my reply to the thread. It sounds like the leader of the group was the one to mark up the wall. There is no excuse for that. To use a famous saying from a great guy on this board "Harbor freight mother f..."

[ratagonia]

Any boy is welcome to join an LDS sponsored troop.

This is a poor forum for discussing this issue, so let's not get into it too much. NO, the Boy Scouts of America excludes certain boys. Boys who are gay, or who are uncertain whether they are gay or not; and boys who decline to profess a belief in a supreme being. Yes, BSA takes many, many religious beliefs, but they do not take them all. They don't take me. Thankfully, when I was a boy scout, they took atheists, so I was allowed and Boy Scouts was an important part of my upbringing.

Tom

[rcwild]

This is a poor forum for discussing this issue, so let's not get into it too much. NO, the Boy Scouts of America excludes certain boys. Boys who are gay, or who are uncertain whether they are gay or not; and boys who decline to profess a belief in a supreme being. Yes, BSA takes many, many religious beliefs, but they do not take them all. They don't take me. Thankfully, when I was a boy scout, they took atheists, so I was allowed and Boy Scouts was an important part of my upbringing.

It's called the right of free association. If BSA wants to promote it's own idea of appropriate values, they have the right. Someone else has a right to form the GASA -- Gay Atheist Scouts of America. In the free market of ideas, each can attract its own members. If more people are attracted to the BSA than the GASA, so be it. If more are attracted to the GASA than the BSA, that's okay, too. It's all good. Welcome to America. Land of the free.

[ratagonia]

It's called the right of free association. If BSA wants to promote it's own idea of appropriate values, they have the right. Someone else has a right to form the GASA -- Gay Atheist Scouts of America. In the free market of ideas, each can attract its own members. If more people are attracted to the BSA than the GASA, so be it. If more are attracted to the GASA than the BSA, that's okay, too. It's all good. Welcome to America. Land of the free.

I'm not saying they should, or have to. I'm saying they don't, and claims that they do are not accurate. I believe it is SAD that they exclude certain boys and leaders from their program. They MOSTLY have very good values, but intolerance for Gays and Atheists is not, IMNEHO, a good thing to teach young kids.

In my scouting years, it was acceptable to be an Atheist and be a Boy Scout. It is not now.

Tom

[rcwild]

They MOSTLY have very good values, but intolerance for Gays and Atheists is not, IMNEHO, a good thing to teach young kids.

Your opinion will carry more weight when you get involved with the GASA.

Love the sinner. Hate the sin.

In my scouting years, it was acceptable to be an Atheist and be a Boy Scout. It is not now.

My scout troop was sponsored by the Methodist Church. I was allowed to participate, even though I attended the Evangelical Free Church. Now THAT'S tolerance.

[Sombeech]

In this situation, the scout leader, if he is one, has done more to harm the organization's reputation than any internet forum could. Satisfies the cliche about one bad apple.

Sorry, I've got to ask again, has anybody confirmed that this was an adult that carved into the rock? Because again, this is something right in line with what young boys would do in the absence of their leader. Just curious.

[rcwild]

Sorry, I've got to ask again, has anybody confirmed that this was an adult that carved into the rock? Because again, this is something right in line with what young boys would do in the absence of their leader. Just curious.

It was an adult. One of the dad's that came along on the trip. Not a Scout leader.

[Jaxx]

This is a poor forum for discussing this issue, so let's not get into it too much. NO, the Boy Scouts of America excludes certain boys. Boys who are gay, or who are uncertain whether they are gay or not; and boys who decline to profess a belief in a supreme being. Yes, BSA takes many, many religious beliefs, but they do not take them all. They don't take me. Thankfully, when I was a boy scout, they took atheists, so I was allowed and Boy Scouts was an important part of my upbringing.

Tom

My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

The 2 boys we have aren't religious at all. I guess they could be athiest. We haven't had a problem registering or awarding them merit badges and ranks. I'm not going to be bringing it up now that I know. It's our secret.

[Cirrus2000]

My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

The 2 boys we have aren't religious at all. I guess they could be athiest. We haven't had a problem registering or awarding them merit badges and ranks. I'm not going to be bringing it up now that I know. It's our secret.

Shhhh!

[accadacca]

My bad. Thanks for pointing that out.

The 2 boys we have aren't religious at all. I guess they could be athiest. We haven't had a problem registering or awarding them merit badges and ranks. I'm not going to be bringing it up now that I know. It's our secret.

Shhhh!

[sarahlizzy]

Having a gay leader creates other complications in the troop. It would be similar to having a woman involved in the troop."

Gosh, I'm sure we wouldn't want *that*

P.S. I'm sure we have female scout leaders here in the UK, and it doesn't seem to create "other complications"

P.P.S. Unless I'm mistaken about what "other complications" might be hinting at, would it be OK if the woman in question was gay? Just asking.

P.P.P.S. In the UK, scout groups must also accept girls as members. Clearly this is *extremely* complicated.

P.P.P.P.S. Sorry for dragging this further off topic - I was gratified not to see any graffiti in Birch Hollow on Saturday when I descended it, so a good cleaning job was done. Still, the original act of vandalism seems to demonstrate shockingly low levels of environmental respect, as well as being entirely pointless (people who are wont to steal things are generally unlikely to be dissuaded by notes, carved in stone or otherwise, asking them not to).

P.P.P.P.P.S. Math is hard and I broke a nail in Behunin. My life is over. *woe*

[Don]

Kev, I enjoyed your analogy about the country club excluding Jews. Made a lot of sense. Almost made me feel bad about having E in cub scouts right now since I am supporting the club that would deny my admission.
This main point should be attributed to Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion; labeling children with the belief systems of their parents is illogical because a developing child is going to grow up and make their own life choices that may or may not include the religion of their parents. How can you call a child a 'mormon child' or a 'catholic child' or an 'atheist child'. There's no telling how that child will decide to believe as an adult.
Case in point; I was raised mormon, went to church every week, served an honorable mission and only years later did I begin to think critically about the religion of my parents, as a child I'm sure I would have called myself a mormon but that would not have been the decision of this adult. On the other hand if you were to call my 8 year old son an 'atheist child' I would view that as offensive because it is bigoted against his right to choose his own path.
Actually, this is why I don't mind sending E to cub scouts; he may or may not believe in god later but it should not matter now. Right now he is a kid honestly enjoying scouts. I would not lie about my beliefs (or lack thereof) to participate in the organization but E doesn't have to lie because to him the world is still all possibilities.
Maybe this point is less applicable to older kids, teenagers who have actually made up their minds about religion but I would argue that many teens have not had the life experience to self-label.

P.S. sarah, you should definitely post more; hilarious + good point(s) = great post!

[Scott Card]

I broke a nail in Behunin. My life is over. *woe*

This is one of the many *complications* we speak of here, across the pond. I am not equipped to deal with such complications.