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Thread: Canyon Graffiti in Birch Hollow June 22, 2010

  1. #1

    Canyon Graffiti in Birch Hollow June 22, 2010

    Took my group of scouts down Birch Hollow yesterday for part of our summer camp. Came up to the last rappel in the canyon and saw that a rope was stuck. They had forgotten to take out the overhand knot they had in the end of the rope before trying to retrieve the rope. The guy below heard me and asked if I would drop his rope down. He had taken a group of scouts through 4 hours earlier. When the rope got stuck, they decided to leave it and hike out. He saw my truck parked down in Orderville so he took the scouts back to their camp and he came back to wait at the bottom of the last rappel for someone to drop it down. I dropped it down and he was on his way. I had 7 boys with me so he was long gone before I got to the bottom of the last rappel. When I got to the bottom of the last rappel in Birch, I noticed that this Scout Master had carved "Do not take ropes" into the canyon walls, in three places with very large lettering and VERY DEEP! What he carved into the walls will be there for a long time to come. What a great example this guy set for his scouts that day. It amazes me. If any of you were in the group or hear from someone you know that mentions they were in a group that got their ropes stuck in Birch Hollow on June 22, 2010, might be a good ideal to have a little talk with them. I wish I would have caught this guys name!
    Bryan in Las Vegas

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  3. #2
    I don't see what the problem is, in 500 years they will wash off.


    In front of scouts too, lol. Crazy story dude.
    Your safety is not my responsibility.

  4. #3
    absolutely appalling

    i assume these were fresh markings? and to think that one's rope is more important than keeping the canyon walls unspoiled.

  5. #4
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    there may be a chance I swing by orderville this weekend. what is it that takes some of this stuff out, wire brush? I may try to help clean this up

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by scubabryan View Post
    Took my group of scouts down Birth Hollow yesterday...He had taken a group of scouts through 4 hours earlier. ...Scout Master had carved "Do not take ropes" into the canyon walls, in three places with very large lettering and VERY DEEP! What he carved into the walls will be there for a long time to come. What a great example this guy set for his scouts that day....
    Did he say where he was from?

    I'm appalled. Did he say that he was a Scouter? I can't imagine any Scout I know doing that... But I know that it does happen. Sorry non-scouters. As a leader I'm doing my best to help train others in my area not to be idiots. But there is only so much a person can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by trackrunner View Post
    there may be a chance I swing by orderville this weekend. what is it that takes some of this stuff out, wire brush? I may try to help clean this up
    Kudos, Trackrunner. I'm taking a group of Scouts through in July. If you can't do it, let me know... I'd like to get it cleaned up before then.

  7. #6
    Canyon Wrangler canyoncaver's Avatar
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    Too bad there is not a permit so the perpetrator could be tracked down and held accountable....

    Oh wait, I forgot, we don't like canyon permits. Sorry.

  8. #7
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Really too bad, because the Kanab field office in charge of Birch Hollow has been very accommodating to canyoneers.
    This scout group needs to be held accountable.
    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!

    Who Is John Galt?

  9. #8
    Bryan,

    Need to put an editorial in both the Salt Lake papers stating...looking for the scout troop that......... may help find who did it? Or may just bring unwanted attention to our sport?

    Mark

  10. #9

  11. #10
    Oldno7

    I agree....and wondering if a letter to local BSA offices might shed some light? Surely there are records of who led what and where?

  12. #11
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    do we know if it was an official scout outing or a youth group. locally it's common to call a youth group trip of scout age kids who happen to be boy scouts a scout trip even though it did not go through the official scouting channels. even if it was a scout trip some leaders do not know of a need to file a scouting tour permit.

    this reminds me of that scout troop that carved out dinosaur tracks and tossed them into a reservoir. they got caught. but instead of stupid kids this time it was a stupid adult that should teach & lead by example for the kids.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2001/jul/28/news/mn-27533

  13. #12
    Zions the "s" is silent trackrunner's Avatar
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    Bryan did you see this guys vehicle when you parked? any other information about him.

  14. #13
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    We were hiking up to Telephone awhile back and heard rocks crashing off the walls and kids screaming around campsite #1.
    We hollered that we were down there and they quit rolling rocks and they kept screaming at us. We heard them the rest of the way until we topped out. When we got to the top, a "scout leader" was standing there with his group. We asked who was rolling rocks(about the size of a microwave)
    He claimed he didn't know but a couple of his boys were still back by the campsite. They walked up and after 5 minutes of telling them that rolling rocks off cliffs in Zion was a bad idea, one of the boys standing next to the "leader" said it was him. "Scout leader" said he hadn't heard anything going on. You could of heard these kids from scout lookout.
    These guys were from California. I know there are some great scout leaders, some on here. But, I'm starting to think they are a minority in scouts.
    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!

    Who Is John Galt?

  15. #14
    Sorry for the delay, just got wifi access. I had to pull the rope up because I couldn't get their knot out to just drop it. As I was pulling it up I asked the guy if he had been waiting there long and he said "No, once we realized it wasn't going to release, I took my boy scout troop back to their camp and then came back to wait for someone to drop it." I have to assume that since they were doing this in the middle of the week, it was their summer camp. We had to file trip reports for our trip but did not have to be specific in which canyon we were doing so I don't know if that group would have filed that info. Birch was busy that day. When I dropped my truck down in Orderville, I counting the number of cars parked down there because I had never seen so many vehicles. There were 8 cars spotted down in Orderville yesterday. The only two that caught my attention were two army green type trucks. Plates on all the cars were from Nevada, Utah and California. We got to the trail head at 1 pm and there were 12 cars parked there...busy day out there! Lauren Hansen (the guy Das Boot was named after) was in the canyon that morning with a large group. Him and I had been communicating back and forth over the last few months to coordinate our start times since be both planned on taking our groups through Birch on the same day so when I get in town, I will be giving him a call this weekend when I get back into town to see if he happens to know who the Scout Master of the group after them was. When I pulled up the rope, I specifically asked the guy if he was in the Lauren Hansen group and he said no. I ran into another guy later that day who was in Laurens group and he said they were out of the canyon around noon so the scout master would have been the group after his. Hopefully I can get more info. It is a shame that this would happen, especially in front of boys at such an impressionable stage in their life. However, it did give me a teaching opportunity with my own scouts.
    Bryan in Las Vegas

  16. #15
    Update: Two friends went through today and erased it. Sorry, no photos. Anyone going through soon?

  17. #16
    scubabryan

    thank you for following up on this.

  18. #17
    Just curious, was it ever confirmed that it was the adult who carved into the rock? This sounds exactly like something kids would do, maybe while the adult wasn't supervising.

  19. #18
    My name is Jeff Dredge. I have been a member of this group for several years now. I don't say much on this forum, but have been fortunate to have been through several canyons with many of you. I am one of those "dreaded" LDS Boy Scout leaders. Over the last 10 years I have taken hundreds of kids out canyoneering in Zion, Moab, Escalante, the Swell, and the Roost. To my knowledge the biggest damage we can rightfully be accused of is the loss of a few lizard tails and the displacement of a few frogs. During that time I have worked with several in the BSA community to raise the level of training and experience of those leaders taking boys in Canyons.

    Please let me remind all of those of you who have taken such a nasty aggressive stance towards the BSA, its Leaders, and the related sponsoring organizations, that all of those men involved in this process freely give of their time, talent, and resources to help teach, train, and build up young men. Many of these same men also take significant time to take young women out and provide them with the same opportunities as the boys. Canyoneering provides a tremendous enviroment to teach the youth a respect for the outdoors, to help and lift others, and to overcome both physical and mental challenges. As you cast aspersions on the BSA, its Leaders, and the sponsoring organizations maybe you should consider that they are all at least trying to teach these concepts to the youth. What other organization reaches out to so many kids and tries to teach concepts such as "Leave no Trace", Be Prepared, and Do a Good Turn Daily?

    Perhaps the operative word here is TRY. There is a learning curve for both the boys and the adults and there are times when the system fails. A poorly trained adult, or an unruly or thoughtless kid can and will make mistakes and errors in judgment. For that there should be additional teaching and training as well as penalties paid depending on the severity of the problem. However, I have spent the better part of 20 years working with youth and adults in this organization. To simply blast the organizations and people involved in general is a shame and only lowers my opinion of the group. The vast majority of those involved with the youth a great men who take considerable time out of their own lives to attempt to build others. How many of you out there throwing the biggest stones can say that of yourselves? Those of you who disparage the sponsoring organization out to perhaps consider that despite differences in religious or spiritual beliefs respect should be given to any organization who seeks to provide opportunities such as those found in Scouting to so many kids.

    [SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]I feel much as most of you regarding the damage to the canyon. It is a travesty and I want whoever did it needs to be found and help responsible for those actions. However, comments made by many in this group have gone way beyond damage to the walls in Birch Hollow and into areas where personal biases towards the LDS faith and the BSA seem to be the overriding theme. I find it interesting to compare the group response to this situation versus the recent responses to the posts regarding the two individuals who spent the night Sandthrax due to extremely poor planning and judgment. I can only imagine the response from the group if it was a Scout group who were stranded after making such poor decisions. I

  20. #19
    Jeff Dredge,



    Great post that highlights the human side of this issue - thanks.

  21. #20
    First of off, kudos to all those involved in posting this issue on the internet which seems to have led to a solution. Impressive response time and investment in solving a problem.

    To Dredge: In the past, I have seen some flippant, disparaging, gross generalizations about the BSA, its leaders, and the role the LDS faith plays in the organization. That said, in this post on Bogley, I have seen a rather even tempered assessment of the situation. When there was a negative remark about scouting, it involved specific instances, which only seems fair game to me. Over the years the BSA has been involved in some high profile incidents in the Southwest which affect its reputation. I am glad to hear that the organization and its leaders are trying to address the grievances; I have seen leaders who go out of there way to educate their scouts about LNT, technical skills and general stewardship. All such people are to be applauded.

    In this situation, the scout leader, if he is one, has done more to harm the organization's reputation than any internet forum could. Satisfies the cliche about one bad apple. The rock you cast this time seems disproportionate to this specific thread.

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