View Poll Results: Auto-Locking vs. Screwgate

Voters
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  • I prefer Auto-Locking Carabiners

    5 15.63%
  • I Prefer Screwgate Carabiners

    27 84.38%
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Thread: Auto-Locking vs. Screwgate

  1. #1
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Auto-Locking vs. Screwgate

    Carabineers
    Had an interesting moment this weekend, I had a newish canyoneer who wanted a top rope belay on a downclimb. I watched the process from directly above the downclimber.
    About halfway down a fairly tight squeeze, the guy froze in panic. He had run the screwgate EDIT:(should have said auto-locker, too much of a hurry heading out this morning) over rock enough to twist the gate the required 1/4 turn and open the biner. He caught it on time, but what if his rope had popped out of the biner and he thought he was still on a belay?
    That which doesn't kill us, can only make us stronger!!!
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  3. #2
    Had the same thing happen with the girl who did Eardley with us. She had a auto locking and when she went over the last edge on her hip I heard the carabiner rub against the rock and I watched the rock twist it to the open position. As soon as she moved it closed but there was a moment when it would of opened.

    Mark

  4. #3
    One the flip side.... I've had screw gates become jammed with sand and grit. They then become extremely difficult to open.... difficult enough that kids and noobs can not get them to release.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    He had run the screwgate over rock enough to twist the gate the required 1/4 turn and open the biner.
    What carabiner was he using that could come open in 1/4 turn? The Pirate in my hand requires 5 full turns before the gate will clear the sleeve. Forced a steel OP open after 3.5 turns. Attache in 2. William in 1.75.
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    He had run the screwgate over rock enough to twist the gate the required 1/4 turn and open the biner.
    That sounds more like an autolocker?
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Pelon1 View Post
    That sounds more like an autolocker?
    Yet another reason not to use them for canyoneering.
    Rich Carlson, Instructor
    YouTube Channel: CanyonsCrags

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by oldno7 View Post
    Had an interesting moment this weekend, I had a newish canyoneer who wanted a top rope belay on a downclimb.
    Was it a situation where he could have tied directly into the rope? No need for any type of biner?

    I used to prefer the DMM autolockers with the plastic twist lock. 1/4 turn. Once the mechanism got clogged with sand (or whatever), they turned into a manual "auto" locker, which I really liked. No threads to get stuck.

    Had a pile of them, but, they all got grooved out.

    Seen a neat trick with a Petzl ball locker, where you can void the warrenty and make it an easy to use locking biner...

    I try to find lockers with threads that are tolerant of grit. Also, maybe two regular biners with the gates reversed might work well too.

    Cheers.

    -Brian in SLC

  9. #8

  10. #9
    The UIAA article mispelled "Petzel".

    I know the DMM belay master (has a plastic bit that swings over and traps the rope in the end of the biner, as well as hides the lock/gate area). I'd think that rig would help with grit in the threads, too. Surprised these haven't caught on...

    What's so special about the "Petzel" ball lock? Can it really not come undone? You have to press the button and spin? Besides the "non-recalled" models that were just twistlockers... Seems like the loop of rope could still run over the ball and twist too?

    Those double action bayonet type lockers would be ok, but, mostly a pain to use one-handed...

    -Brian in SLC

  11. #10
    The "Petzel" Ball Lock is nothing special and I wouldn't recommend it for a single-biner belay attachment. Note that the Ball Lock design available when the article was written is no longer for sale. None of the Petzl "ball" series carabiners are any good in a desert environment.

    The DMM BelayMaster would likely be a good choice if one HAD to attach a belay line with a single 'biner.

    In general, best to tie in w/the rope or use two 'biners (toprope only!) Lots of accidents using a single locker, mostly hidden by the self-perpetuating wonder machine called the US tort system.
    Last edited by hank moon; 06-21-2010 at 03:30 PM. Reason: clarify that tying in w/biners is for toprope only!

  12. #11
    Canyon Wrangler canyoncaver's Avatar
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    Hank, do you attach your rappel device with two biners for the same reason? I know some cavers that do...

  13. #12
    not tying in directly to your harness? sounds like someone learned to climb in a gym. the only time i ever incorporated a biner into my primary tie in was for glacier travel. it's just one more thing that can go wrong while doing the thing that is the most dangerous aspect of climbing, descending.
    But if I agreed with you, we would both be wrong.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by canyoncaver View Post
    Hank, do you attach your rappel device with two biners for the same reason? I know some cavers that do...
    I do not as (in contrast to a belayed climb) the rap-tachment 'biner is normally under constant load, properly oriented, and can be easily checked while in use. the chief danger in belayed climbs is accidental unclipping, not breakage.

    I know a caver who used two 10mm maillons to attach his rack (for breakage redundancy). This seemed needlessly screwy, so he rec'd a 16mm Delta maillon for a birthday prezzie

  15. #14
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcwild View Post
    What carabiner was he using that could come open in 1/4 turn? The Pirate in my hand requires 5 full turns before the gate will clear the sleeve. Forced a steel OP open after 3.5 turns. Attache in 2. William in 1.75.
    Typo--meant the auto locking biner.
    I'm not Spartacus


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  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by denaliguide View Post
    not tying in directly to your harness? sounds like someone learned to climb in a gym.
    No gym in Utah, to my knowledge.

    I can think of only a couple, maybe one or two gyms, that have folks clip into a carabiner for top roping. One was for use with an auto belay device, the other was a gym which had Gri Gri's permanently attached for belay for the top ropes.

    Pretty rare for folks to not tie straight into a rope in the climbing gym.

    Its kinda funny, but, I hear folks that are critial of those who learn to climb in a gym and how those skills don't necessarily transfer outdoors. From what I've observed, they at least learn SOME basics, rather than a few folks who go it alone and head out with even fewer skills they've picked up from poorly educated friends and/or a book.

    I always try to listen in (the classes they teach at Rockreation here in SLC are right next to the lead area). They seem to get fairly good instruction, especially on how to tie in, how to clip, how to belay (great upgrade in how in the last while, very nice), how to lower someone. Its reasonable. Is it enough to climb outdoors? Maybe. Gym climbers at least have some skills, and, if they spend much time in the gym, they get a ton of mileage.

    Oh well, off to the climbing gym...(ha ha).

    -Brian in SLC

  17. #16
    When we did an adventure race in moab they made us get a form signed by a climbing gym that we could belay etc. We went to Rockreation for the class. I was quite impressed with what they taught us in a short class. Well worth the time.

  18. #17
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denaliguide View Post
    not tying in directly to your harness? sounds like someone learned to climb in a gym. the only time i ever incorporated a biner into my primary tie in was for glacier travel. it's just one more thing that can go wrong while doing the thing that is the most dangerous aspect of climbing, descending.
    Les
    We use a biner attachment rather than a re-threaded tie in for efficiency. If you have 10 people going through a canyon with maybe 5-10 consecutive downclimbs, tying directly into the harness is very time consuming. A lot of these type of downclimbs are in the 10-20' range. In canyoneering we mostly are descending the whole time, using a screwgate carabiner attachment for a belay from above, while downclimbing I believe to be safe. I try to get through in an efficient and safe manner. I've never personally used a auto-locking carabiner in a canyon environment. Screwgates seem quite safe and less prone to stick in a sandy environment,IMO. YMMV
    I'm not Spartacus


    It'll come back.


    Professional Mangler of Grammar

    Guns don't kill people--Static Ropes Do!!

    Who Is John Galt?

  19. #18
    Personally, I just use 2 opposite and opposed keylock oval biners for rappeling. That way I don't have to worry about the gate getting opened, or the gate getting jammed shut, and plus it's redundant. I haven't switched over to wiregate ovals opposite and opposed yet, but I"ll probably give that a shot soon.

  20. #19
    i'm not sure but i don't think wire gates are recommended for that purpose.
    But if I agreed with you, we would both be wrong.

  21. #20

    Auto-Locking vs. Screwgate

    I turned this thread into a poll because I was curious who used what....

    I've always preferred auto-lockers because I have less problems with them, and they are much easier to operate one handed.... but after reading this thread I think I might be in the minority....

    There is not a right or wrong answer, despite what some might tell you.... and your vote is anonymous.....

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