I'd Do Two ATCs at the Same Time Man.

[DWayne27]

Ah daughter... OK. Makes sense. It didnt quite look like your wife, but enough like her, and I just assumed you dont tandem rappel with too many other women. But hey, I dont judge

[xxnitsuaxx]

As an air traffic controller, I'm planning to avoid you for a while, Austin.

No offense Kev, but you're a little big and hairy for me. How would you feel about putting on a blonde wig though...?

[ratagonia]

Kurt - looks like the top 8 is rigged "canyon mode"? Would both 8s rigged standard have been too much friction? Or am I not seeing the picture right? And what is going on between your 8 and your wifes? Something attached to your short tether?

Hey Kurt -

you should try the regular figure 8 using a Petzl OK oval. In the pic, you can see the 'figure-8-levering-on the biner' effect on that William. In the rare cases I use a regular figure 8, I find the locking Oval works much smoother. Give it a try.

Tom

[hank moon]

Hey Kurt -

you should try the regular figure 8 using a Petzl OK oval. In the pic, you can see the 'figure-8-levering-on the biner' effect on that William. In the rare cases I use a regular figure 8, I find the locking Oval works much smoother. Give it a try.

Tom

Tom, I'm not seeing what you are seeing...where is the leverage issue? I DO see that the upper 8 appears to be rigged oddly, providing minimal friction (less than "canyon mode").

[ratagonia]

Tom, I'm not seeing what you are seeing...where is the leverage issue? I DO see that the upper 8 appears to be rigged oddly, providing minimal friction (less than "canyon mode").

Yes, it actually looks like it is 'reverse canyon mode' (ie, the rope is away from the gate side of the biner), but that is what I am talking about.

On an HMS biner, especially one with a long horizontal bar like the William, my observation has been that when loaded, the Figure 8 small hole often CAMS on the biner horizontal bar, with the rope running some way aways from the body of the Figure 8 - as shown. Results in less friction.

Seems like with a lot of biners, regular figure 8s often grab an odd configuration upon being loaded. One of these is the famous 'break the gate off, fall to your death' scenario, but there are other, more-likely undesirable configurations. Using an OK (locking) Oval seems to mostly eliminate this problem.

Tom

[hank moon]

Yes, it actually looks like it is 'reverse canyon mode' (ie, the rope is away from the gate side of the biner), but that is what I am talking about.

On an HMS biner, especially one with a long horizontal bar like the William, my observation has been that when loaded, the Figure 8 small hole often CAMS on the biner horizontal bar, with the rope running some way aways from the body of the Figure 8 - as shown. Results in less friction.

Seems like with a lot of biners, regular figure 8s often grab an odd configuration upon being loaded. One of these is the famous 'break the gate off, fall to your death' scenario, but there are other, more-likely undesirable configurations. Using an OK (locking) Oval seems to mostly eliminate this problem.

Tom

OK, i thought you might be talking about the latter, more serious problem (detailed HERE). Kurt, what is the advantage of 'reverse canyon mode'?

[ratagonia]

OK, i thought you might be talking about the latter, more serious problem (detailed HERE). Kurt, what is the advantage of 'reverse canyon mode'?

Yeah like that. The ol' break the gate off fall to your death thing.

When reading that article before, my focus has always been on Neville's taking every opportunity to take cheap shots at Black Diamond.

Odd that he doesn't reach the conclusion that using a regular figure 8 rappel device is not a good idea... that is the conclusion I reach.

Tom

[moab mark]

Hank thanks for that article. I am not an FOE user but I bought one of the BOD harnesses and did have concerns on how the harness loads the carabiner.. The waist strap seems to put pressure on the screwgate. I also thought it was hard to rig my pirana. I now use a large rapide and then clip the biner to it. Those of you that use a BOD do you just use a Biner?

[Iceaxe]

I now use a large rapide and then clip the biner to it. Those of you that use a BOD do you just use a Biner?

Doesn't using a large rapide (essentially creating a belay loop?) defeat the main advantage (easy on/easy off) of using a BD BOD to begin with?

When using the BD BOD (my favorite harness for canyons) I just use a large biner no matter what rappel device I'm using. YMMV

[moab mark]

It actually works quite well. I leave the rapide on the leg loop and then just pull it up and put the waist strap thru it before putting thru buckle. Can then remove biner and device when downclimbing etc.

[Iceaxe]

It actually works quite well. I leave the rapide on the leg loop and then just pull it up and put the waist strap thru it before putting thru buckle. Can then remove biner and device when downclimbing etc.

BD makes a harness just like you are taking, I think they call it the the Coulior. The harness without the belay loop is actually the BD Alpine Bod (The Bod has a belay loop). The coulior is just the Apline Bod with a belay loop sewn to the diaper loop.... why not just buy that harness instead? I'd prefer to have a sewn belay loop over a big rapide....

[ratagonia]

BD makes a harness just like you are taking, I think they call it the the Coulior. The harness without the belay loop is actually the BD Alpine Bod (The Bod has a belay loop). The coulior is just the Apline Bod with a belay loop sewn to the diaper loop.... why not just buy that harness instead? I'd prefer to have a sewn belay loop over a big rapide....

The CURRENT Bod has a belay loop. That is new for it.

The CURRENT Alp Bod has no belay loop - but it does if you buy it in Europe.

I have worn the Alpine Bod, sir, and I can tell you that the Couloir is NO Alpine Bod!!

Tom

[ratagonia]

It actually works quite well. I leave the rapide on the leg loop and then just pull it up and put the waist strap thru it before putting thru buckle. Can then remove biner and device when downclimbing etc.

I do the same, or at least something similar. I use a 10mm Aluminum rapide on the leg loop strap and thread the waistbelt through it.

And then, when using the Pirana, it works so much better if the Pirana lays flat. On my normal harness (BD Momentum AL), I add a 10mm alum rapide to the belay loop, and put the Pirana biner in that. On the Alp Bod, I use a small locking biner for another link so the Pirana lies flat.

Tom

[oldno7]

Hey Kurt -

you should try the regular figure 8 using a Petzl OK oval. In the pic, you can see the 'figure-8-levering-on the biner' effect on that William. In the rare cases I use a regular figure 8, I find the locking Oval works much smoother. Give it a try.

Tom

Tom
I'm sure you are correct about the oval, I always have the Williams on my long tether for ease of clipping in to anchors, ascending, etc. So it is by default that it is what I use on a tandem rappel.

Hank
I used several different options(on a low angle slab)fig. 8 standard, fig. 8 regular canyon, and this reverse canyon mode. With the settup I use, I found the friction in this configuration to be slightly less than in canyon mode, as you know, the upper device requires a very slight amount of friction and this seemed to work.(on this rappel, on this rope, with the weight of us 2) I couldn't see any potential problems when we were testing, so I used this configuration and it still had me feeding rope on about the upper 1/3 as I recall.(did this last year)
Someone lighter than me might require more friction on the upper device, but I think the rappellers weight on the upper device keeps it in place quite well with very little friction.

[oval]

BD makes a harness just like you are taking, I think they call it the the Coulior. The harness without the belay loop is actually the BD Alpine Bod (The Bod has a belay loop). The coulior is just the Apline Bod with a belay loop sewn to the diaper loop.... why not just buy that harness instead? I'd prefer to have a sewn belay loop over a big rapide....

I've got the coulior, but I use it for glacier stuff. It's thinner material than the Bod/AlpineBod, and it doesn't have a full leg loop, just a posterior one. I don't think it'd stand up for canyoneering, though I do intend to give it a shot since I don't make it up to Washington as much as I want to, heh.