Angel Slot and Fallen Angel Warnings (and a "What would you do?" scenario)

[qedcook]

Went to Angel Slot and Fallen Angel last weekend. I'm pretty sure Shane's GPS coordinate for the head of Angel Slot is wrong. climb-utah says the head of the canyon is [SIZE=2](N38

[Scott Card]

I've not been in this canyon so I don't know the physics. Is it possible to deconstruct the anchor and reconstruct it several feet back (and hopefully below the level of the edge) to increase the friction/advantage and simply extend the webbing to the edge? That would keep the rappel length information correct on the interwebs. And BTW good question and observation.

[Iceaxe]

First Rappel in Angel Slot should be N38

[ratagonia]

And what became of the "looks like an anchor" not-anchor?

Tom

[Don]

Seems easy enough to back-up the anchor using a buddy as meat and then send the biggest guy down first. Allow big man to test the anchor without the dangerous sounding test you describe.
Being the big man in my group I'm always the first down on a dead-man so I prefer to take apart and rebuild a sketchy anchor rather that just weight-test it.

[nat]

Hmm..., I've done this slot a couple of times, once with Bruce and once with Stefan. I don't remember this problem at the last rap. I think that the anchor then was a deadman just a few feet back from the lip. We meat belayed the anchor for the first person down. As I recall, the geometry was fine.

Nat

[oldno7]

[QUOTE=qedcook;403445]Went to Angel Slot and Fallen Angel last weekend. I'm pretty sure Shane's GPS coordinate for the head of Angel Slot is wrong. climb-utah says the head of the canyon is [SIZE=2](N38

[ratagonia]

Can you further explain the first guy getting on rappel and how he "stepped" to the edge. I don't know your experience in canyons that have "marginal" anchors, but "stepping" to me, says your friend was standing up. On a marginal anchor, it is best to sequence your crew down as Don alluded to, backing up the anchor with meat for all but the last person(your smoothest rappeler), and that person would butt slide as far as possible to incorporate friction into the rope and remove some of the load from the "marginal anchor", I would suggest sitting starts for the rest of the group as well.
If you don't understand the geometry, sequencing,back-up,starting off marginal anchors, I suggest you stay in bolted, or canyons with well developed anchors until you learn these methods. What if your friend who started on rappel leaned back and was unable to come back up? Sounds like you might be attending his funeral.

Cranky Old No. 7: you're starting to sound like me!

T

[ratagonia]

We set up a different rappel 50 feet upcanyon on a super-solid chokestone and extend the webbing, but the rappel is now 120 feet long. I have a 70 meter rope so it didn't bother me, but I know there are people who go into the canyon who think the longest rappel is 100'.

CLEAN UP ON AISLE ANGEL SLOT.... thankfully, just a dry clean up.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The warning and scenario: We were at the second-to-last rappel in fallen angel. The anchor was a deadman right next to the edge of the rappel. We all pulled hard on the webbing, checked the knots, conditions, etc. It seems very solid, but I did not like the fact that the rocks were right next to the edge, that defeats the purpose of deadman anchor physics, right? The first guy gets on rappel and steps to the edge. He begins to go down when the rocks creak ant the whole thing begins to move. Being prepared for this, the guy quickly climbs back to the top. We set up a different rappel 50 feet upcanyon on a super-solid chokestone and extend the webbing, but the rappel is now 120 feet long. I have a 70 meter rope so it didn't bother me, but I know there are people who go into the canyon who think the longest rappel is 100'.

The only way the rappel is going to be 100' is if the anchor is right next to the edge, but the deadman anchor will surely fail. I want to save the last 50' of my webbing for emergency use.

Long story short, the longest rappel in Fallen Angel is now 120 feet. Some newbies are going to go to the canyon unprepared and get stuck, or worse. What would you do?

Now that we've had our fun...

Us crusty old cranky guyz suspect you have little experience with natural anchors, especially deadmen.

Right next to the edge is a GOOD place for the anchor. Leaves a minimum of webbing (=litter) in the canyon, and usually there is a depression or lip that can be used favorably. It is a good idea to dig out and thoroughly inspect deadmen when you get to them, rather than just pull real hard on em. Depends on how often the canyon gets done, how late it is, how cold it is, how expendable your buddy is...

As a matter of habit, even after rebuilding, it is a good idea to: 1. backup a deadman with a meat anchor; 2. send the stoutest guy down first; and 3. use low-force rappelling techniques to minimize force on the anchor. Sounds like you did perhaps #2, but not #1 and #3.

I suppose that with you guyz being unfamiliar with deadman anchors, tying off a solid chockstone and leaving 30 feet of webbing was a wise choice. In the future, it might be good for all y'alls to go canyon with someone who can teach you deadman anchors.

The good news is: someone gets a nice piece of webbing.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Right next to the edge is a GOOD place for the anchor. Leaves a minimum of webbing (=litter) in the canyon, and usually there is a depression or lip that can be used favorably.

Tom

Ahh, depends doesn't it? Depends on the slope/angle, whether there is a depression or lip, in other words - the geometry is key, not the proximity to the edge. Again, I have no idea what the geometry is at this rap since I have never been there but I do remember the monument style deadman anchor at the first rap in Trail Canyon with less that favorable geometry and a fairly long piece of webbing. That succa flexed a bit but was solid but if memory serves me correctly was several feet back from the edge. BTW, the anchor in Trail is(was?) so big that it would make any dead man proud. I think the rule should be that if you encounter a deadman anchor you should have to stack one more rock on top just because. (Just kidding - no need to flame that statement) Maybe your statement above is specific to this canyon but I don't believe it to be a correct statement generally. Just another noob sayin'

[Jaxx]

Any pic of the old deadman to help us picture it?

I would just throw in a couple of bolts, prob solved...


















there is no sarcasm font.

[qedcook]

This was the second to last rappel, not the last. There was no depression or lip, that's what bothered me about the anchor. I have TONS of experience with deadman anchors and I did back the first rappeler up. He did start on his knees and once he was down far enough for the rope to 'drag' the ground he stood up. When the rocks began to move I held the back rock in place until my friend returned to the top of the rappel. You old geysers are paranoid (rightly so with deadmans). As for the fate of the 'not-anchor', we deconstructed it and moved the rocks away from the edge. We easily could have moved the anchor back and buried it but the chokestone was an easier and safer solution.

My what-if wasn't concerning the deadman so much as it was leaving a rappel rigged up that was 120 feet when most newbie canyoneers are expecting the longest rappel to be 100.

[Scott Card]

You old geysers are paranoid (rightly so with deadmans).

Hence the reason we are old and still kicking.... (I am admittedly paranoid. If you go with me in a canyon I will prove it to you. )

[paul4886]

We were there last Halloween and dressed appropriately.
http://picasaweb.google.com/PaulFrnSLC/FallenAngel#

The dead man did take some adjusting as I recall.

[oldno7]

Possibly a little clarification on terminology might be in order:
There is a big difference between a deadman anchor and a cairn/bollard type anchor. The deadman is always buried and if wrapped correctly the webbing should come out the bottom of your rock, log, whatever you buried. Ideally after the webbing comes out low you might have it in a gently sloping channel/trench until it daylights. Once this is done, it can be filled back in(rock and channel/trench). Other possibility is to bury your rock/log etc. against a buried shelf or solid rock to help prevent sliding forward. Basically the sky is the limit for building either one of these or any combination thereof.
What I'm seeing in the picture link is a cairn/bollard anchor that sits on top of the ground. Definitely requires more skill and judgement to use one of these vs. a actual well constructed deadman. If rappeling off this cairn anchor, I think it would be prudent to do a butt start. You want to stay as low as possible so that the rope comes in contact with the rock very early on in the rappel, once the rope has made contact you must be careful not to stand up too soon and release the friction you incorporated. Not unusual to butt slide 15-20' down, or more. Then if your a right handed rappeler, you scooted on your left butt cheek(feet facing out), as you get low enough not to release any of the contact points of rope on rock, you just slowly and smoothly transition on to rappel by rotating counter clockwise. The key I think is doing all of this smoothly without any sudden jolts that will shock the anchor. Being on your knees, could be too high to get started IMO.

[Scott Card]

Possibly a little clarification on terminology might be in order:
There is a big difference between a deadman anchor and a cairn/bollard type anchor. The deadman is always buried and if wrapped correctly the webbing should come out the bottom of your rock, log, whatever you buried. Ideally after the webbing comes out low you might have it in a gently sloping channel/trench until it daylights. Once this is done, it can be filled back in(rock and channel/trench). Other possibility is to bury your rock/log etc. against a buried shelf or solid rock to help prevent sliding forward. Basically the sky is the limit for building either one of these or any combination thereof.
What I'm seeing in the picture link is a cairn/bollard anchor that sits on top of the ground. Definitely requires more skill and judgement to use one of these vs. a actual well constructed deadman. .

You are correct. Dang, that is the second time I have made that mistake. I will say that many a dead man anchors end up with a stack of rocks on them. I will try to be more precise when refering to the rock pile I am rapping from or referring to.