Subway questions

**codyb25** · 05-24-2010, 12:54 PM

Hi everyone,
I've been reading through some recent posts regarding the current conditions in the Subway. Looks like there was some crazy water flow during the first part of the month! Anyone heard how it is now or how it may be in a few weeks?

I'm taking a bunch of teenagers through there in a few weeks but we are only hiking in from the bottom (not sure if that is still considered canyoneering at that point). I'd rather go top down but we don't have approval since this is a scout troop. I've only been through the canyon once and it has been a few years so I can't remember some of it. We did it top down so I'm having a hard time remembering just how far you could get up the canyon from the bottom. Anyone know? We wouldn't be planning on doing any climbs. Also, will we need dry bags if going in from the bottom?

Thanks in advance for the help.

**Sponsored Link** · 05-24-2010 12:54 PM

**Don** · 05-24-2010, 01:57 PM

Should be better in a few weeks and the nice thing about going from the bottom up is you have no committment to continue; you can turn around and hike out wherever you feel like.
Dry bags for scouts seems like a good idea but aren't required. Zip-locks for sandwiches and tied-shut garbage bags should suit you well enough if you're coming up from the bottom and don't do any swimming. Of course you'll want to treat electronics a little better than that, but if you're on a budget you can make-do without drybags.

**ratagonia** · 05-24-2010, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by codyb25

Hi everyone,
I've been reading through some recent posts regarding the current conditions in the Subway. Looks like there was some crazy water flow during the first part of the month! Anyone heard how it is now or how it may be in a few weeks?

I'm taking a bunch of teenagers through there in a few weeks but we are only hiking in from the bottom (not sure if that is still considered canyoneering at that point). I'd rather go top down but we don't have approval since this is a scout troop. I've only been through the canyon once and it has been a few years so I can't remember some of it. We did it top down so I'm having a hard time remembering just how far you could get up the canyon from the bottom. Anyone know? We wouldn't be planning on doing any climbs. Also, will we need dry bags if going in from the bottom?

Thanks in advance for the help.

You might try that Internets thing - sometimes works pretty good. Just Goggle it!

You might end up here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/subbot.php

Tom

**codyb25** · 05-25-2010, 11:31 PM

Thanks Tom. I am familiar with your site (has come in handy in the past) and I did read the article. Apparently I did not read it good enough i guess. I was curious what features you could get to from the bottom without climbing. Sounds like we will not be able to get to the log or keyhole falls. Now that I read closer, it also sounds like there may be one pool to wade/swim as well....

Thanks for the info.

**ratagonia** · 05-26-2010, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by codyb25

Thanks Tom. I am familiar with your site (has come in handy in the past) and I did read the article. Apparently I did not read it good enough i guess. I was curious what features you could get to from the bottom without climbing. Sounds like we will not be able to get to the log or keyhole falls. Now that I read closer, it also sounds like there may be one pool to wade/swim as well....

Thanks for the info.

Getting up the first level gets you to the log and keyhole falls. Usually it involves a short swim or deep wade, and a climb-up that is fairly moderate with a partner assist. Getting through the keyhole requires a crane.

Tom

**Scott Card** · 05-26-2010, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by ratagonia

Getting through the keyhole requires a crane.

Tom

Or a Happy Hooker and some atriers

**Ryebrye** · 06-01-2010, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by ratagonia

Getting up the first level gets you to the log and keyhole falls. Usually it involves a short swim or deep wade, and a climb-up that is fairly moderate with a partner assist. Getting through the keyhole requires a crane.

Tom

If you do the subway from the bottom up you can get to just before you get to the actual subway section... so... you basically hike up the exit and back down the exit of the canyon. Climbing up the part to get to the subway section would - in my opinion - be much more difficult and dangerous than just going from the top down and rappelling that slope. It's probably not a difficult climb, but it's more difficult than anything you'd encounter coming from the top down.

Getting up the keyhole section might require a crane in normal conditions. There was a log there earlier this year that didn't look like it was going to go anywhere anytime soon - so that might still be there and you could climb up that.

I'm a top-down snob, I suppose, but I think doing it from the bottom up just robs someone who could do it from the top of a permit space so you can hike along a moderate stream and be stopped just short of the coolest parts of the canyon. (Although I don't resent the people doing it from the bottom up when I am already in a group doing it from the top because we usually end up getting a ride from them back to our car at the top trailhead

)

**codyb25** · 06-03-2010, 07:31 AM

Thanks Ryebrye,

Believe me, I'm on your side. Top down is the way to go and it isn't a very difficult canyon to take new people through. It pains me a bit to think that these boys are only going to get a tease of the full canyon. My hands are tied though with the dang BSA rules these days. All these boys are 14 and older and I know they could do the canyon top down. We're required to have one of the adults "certified" in order to tackle anything higher than "shoulder height". Rules, rules.

**Scott Card** · 06-03-2010, 10:40 AM

Say what? What rules are your referring to? The "climb on safely" useless certification? There must be a way around "rules" ....

From the top down you are not "climbing" anything. All obstacles can be overcome without rapping if you are just a little creative.

**moab mark** · 06-03-2010, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Say what? What rules are your referring to? The "climb on safely" useless certification? There must be a way around "rules" ....

From the top down you are not "climbing" anything. All obstacles can be overcome without rapping if you are just a little creative.

Yea what rules are you talking about? We take Scouts all over in Zions. Oh I mean Zion.

You could not pay me enough to hike up from the bottom and turn around and go back. Not enough good stuff for the miserable hike up the bottom and then back.

**codyb25** · 06-04-2010, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Say what? What rules are your referring to? The "climb on safely" useless certification? There must be a way around "rules" ....

From the top down you are not "climbing" anything. All obstacles can be overcome without rapping if you are just a little creative.

The "climb on safely" training is just basic safety tips like wear a helmet. Taking that training does not qualify you as a certified instructor. There's a whole different training you have to take to be "certified" and it is something like a two day course with both classroom and outdoor instruction. The BSA rules are the same for both climbing and rappeling (even a hand line for the subway). I think most scout leaders probably don't even know about the requirements for climbing or rappeling and just use thier best judgement. Our scout leaders are pretty reluctant to do the canyon top down due to the potential liability if someone got hurt since we technically wouldn't have a qualified instructor to set them up and instruct them on any down climbs or hand lines. I personally think we'd be ok but I also understand the concern.

Here's one of the links talking about the rules.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...GSS/gss09.aspx

Also, here's a previous post discussing the topic (Bill S chimes in since he's a certified instructor).
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...ood-Rappelling

**ratagonia** · 06-04-2010, 08:21 AM

We have a Yahoo Group for Scout Leaders. Not much action, but a good place to ask questions and borrow helmets!!!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bsacanyoneers/

Tom

**Scott Card** · 06-04-2010, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by codyb25

The "climb on safely" training is just basic safety tips like wear a helmet. Taking that training does not qualify you as a certified instructor. There's a whole different training you have to take to be "certified" and it is something like a two day course with both classroom and outdoor instruction. The BSA rules are the same for both climbing and rappeling (even a hand line for the subway). I think most scout leaders probably don't even know about the requirements for climbing or rappeling and just use thier best judgement. Our scout leaders are pretty reluctant to do the canyon top down due to the potential liability if someone got hurt since we technically wouldn't have a qualified instructor to set them up and instruct them on any down climbs or hand lines. I personally think we'd be ok but I also understand the concern.

Here's one of the links talking about the rules.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...GSS/gss09.aspx

Also, here's a previous post discussing the topic (Bill S chimes in since he's a certified instructor).
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...ood-Rappelling

These rules don't really account for the many different skills/dangers involved in canyoneering. I would think there are several people out there who are talented canyoneers, capable of far more in a canyon who may not be "climbing" certified. The skills taught about climbing by the BSA are insufficient for canyoneering and I would argue frankly don't apply or can't be applied. In fact, if the climbing skills class/certification are what gives BSA leaders confidence in a slot canyon to be a canyon leader I would argue that "certification" is giving the leaders a false sense of security. Keeper pot hole anyone? Natural anchors anyone? Potshots? Stemming? Canyon rescue techniques? Flash flood awareness? Moving a group through a canyon efficiently? Meat anchors? There is so much that a leader needs to know that a 10 hour class at a climbing gym or a "college level" climbing course will never teach. Also, I am certain of one thing. Climbing certification does not equal canyon experience, wisdom, canyoneering common sense, or the ability to lead in a canyon.

So under Rule 4 of your link it says:

4. Safe Area All BSA climbing/rappelling activities must be conducted using an established climbing/rappelling site or facility, including a portable or commercial facility. A qualified climbing instructor should survey the site in advance of the activity to identify and evaluate possible hazards and to determine whether the site is suitable for the age, maturity, and skill level of the participants. The instructor should also verify that the site is sufficient to safely and comfortably accommodate the number of participants in the activity within the available time. An emergency evacuation route must be identified in advance.

Does this mean that a canyon is not permitted since it is not an established rappelling site? What about the off the radar canyons where natural anchors are the norm? What about a stemming canyon where ropes are not necessary? (Stair Canyon) Can your scouts do Little Wild Horse/Bell canyons since there are over "shoulder height" up/down climbs? I must say as a three time Venture Scout leader. If I applied the scout climbing rules to canyoneering, I would have never gone into a slot canyon. The rules simply don't apply. BTW, you should not let the scouts into the Subway due to the swimming rules either then.... The BSA needs to evaluate the activity, specifically canyoneering. Note that they have guidelines for caving which has been recognized as a different activity. Canyoneering IS NOT climbing nor is it caving. I am not saying one is superior to the other or harder than the other, but they certainly are apples and carrots in comparison. Maybe we should apply the rules of basketball to soccer since there are fouls in each sport. HUH??? I never climbed growing up but I have led hundreds of youth through slot canyons and I have taught hundreds to rappel in canyons. I always had the climb on certification when I was a leader which, again, I maintain is useless. (begin aside now) Oh, and frankly, the slippery red rocks at the cascading part of the Subway to me post the worst danger of a head injury in the Subway. This doesn't require helmets, ropes or certification. I can't tell you how many people I have watched slip and fall backwards. (End aside)

Bottom line, why are you or others, including in the scout office, trying to apply the rules of apples to carrots? Basketball to soccer? I don't see these rules as applicable or very useful. I frankly think the climbing certification and potential (ill advised) confidence that certification gives is a potential greater risk to the boys than a leader who has canyoneering specific training, wisdom and experience. BTW, I am not blasting you. I am irritated that the rules for climbing are being applied to canyoneering. I don't have a problem with the rule of climbing being applied to climbing. I simply disagree that the climbing rules should even be applied to canyoneering. I think it is both dangerous to believe that the BSA climbing certification qualifies a leader to lead boys through canyons and I also think it is silly to require the certification for canyoneering. Don't get me wrong. I love the Boy Scouts and what it stands for. I think I understand liability issues pretty well, hence the reason for my irritation. I am an Eagle Scout and I hope my son will be one too, when he is old enough. I think I have been a merit badge counselor for at least 20 merit badges throughout the years. I would be happy to talk to the leaders or scout office people that equate climbing to canyoneering and would require the climbing certification to be applied to canyoneering. I probably wouldn't win that argument particularly if the scout office people have never been in a canyon. But somehow, there are different standards to caving???

Anyway, I could go on and on... but I won't. Nuff said for now.

**Scott Card** · 06-04-2010, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by ratagonia

We have a Yahoo Group for Scout Leaders. Not much action, but a good place to ask questions and borrow helmets!!!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bsacanyoneers/

Tom

I need to join this. They may not let me join in after my prior post. Some may think I have just besmirched the Boy Scouts by challenging the rules. I tend to do that with misguided rules or the misguided application of a rule or simply really bad rules. Shall we talk about the Zion permit system?

**codyb25** · 06-07-2010, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Bottom line, why are you or others, including in the scout office, trying to apply the rules of apples to carrots? Basketball to soccer? I don't see these rules as applicable or very useful. I frankly think the climbing certification and potential (ill advised) confidence that certification gives is a potential greater risk to the boys than a leader who has canyoneering specific training, wisdom and experience. BTW, I am not blasting you. I am irritated that the rules for climbing are being applied to canyoneering.

Scott, what you say makes sense and I totally agree with you. The bad thing for me is that I'm not a scout leader, I'm just helping take the boys through. Like you said, the rules don't make sense. But there's too much liability if someone was to get seriously injured. I don't think we could tell the BSA or Judge that we ignored the requirements because we felt they were poorly written and didn't apply to the activity. I'd love to see the requirements be more applicable to canyoneering but I'm not sure how to go about promoting that change. I'm not knocking anyone for using their best judgement....like I said...I don't think any of our boys would have a problem with the canyon.....but to the current scout leaders, it just isn't worth the liability risk...which I can totally understand.

Thanks everyone for the help in this thread. I think I have the info I was looking for.

**Scott Card** · 06-07-2010, 11:42 AM

I understand everyone has their own threshold for personal liability. I can respect that. It is sad what the BSA has done by their efforts to protect the boys.

One clarification, I didn't say the rules are poorly written for climbing. I don't know climbing. I just think the rules don't apply to canyoneering. Canyoneering is NOT equal to climbing. Hence, the reason I didn't really pay attention to them when leading boys through canyons. Even Zion Park in all its bureaucratic glory distinguishes between climbing and canyoneering. When I did this canyoneering stuff as a youth leader, I had my climb on safely certification and no other certification was offered in my district. I didn't even know any other certification existed. We call the office and specifically asked about canyoneering. Their response was "HUH?" So we went hiking with ropes. I was never denied a tour permit. I was completely honest in where we were going when making application for the permits.

I will pick up the top roping material from the BSA and check it out to see what all the other rules are and how they would or would not apply to canyoneering. Also, it appears that your leaders are different from me. I apparently have a much higher tolerance for liability I guess (not really). I just look at liability like a lawyer. What would the negligence be? What is the proximate cause of the injury? Poorly trained or unskilled leadership in a canyon or a lack of certification? Can a leader avoid personal liability with bad decision making and poor skills and yet be certified? Maybe the BSA would cover an unskilled canyoneering leader if he has climbing certification but in my mind the issue is not whether the BSA will cover me it is whether I will kill a kid or not. If I feel comfortable with my canyoneering skills and I have trained my boys in canyoneering, my fear is mostly abated. If I trust my boys and I am comfortable with my canyoneering abilities my next question is to balance the threat of injury and a law suit with the experience of going in a canyon. Experience or potential for accident and law suit seems the be the question. I guess I really am about giving a boy a true "High Adventure Experience" rather than muddle with the tourists. But I make that decision based on personal training, mitigating all the risks, training the boys before we ever go into a canyon, and testing the heck out of the boys. One other suggestion, I think there is an exception in the rules that if you have a certification specifically in canyoneering from a nationally recognized source you can comply with the BSA regulations and rules without having to certify in BSA climbing. In other words, I would think the ACA certifications would go a long way and make the boys safer, the leaders better trained for the specific challenge -- a slot canyon -- and still protect the leaders from personal liability at least regarding the BSA. I will check into this when I purchase the BSA material and I will make a post then.

Back to the Subway specifically, honestly, the Safe Swim rules would seem to preclude you from the Subway unless you check water depth, post life guards, buddy plan, swim test....etc. (BTW, when I swim tested the boys, I made them do the test with weighted back packs on. Cold water changes everyone's ability to swim)

It is sad that we as scout leaders run scared. Who is hurt by this are the boys. They are prevented from a great and true High Adventure experience due to not-applicable rules and misguided efforts to protect the boys. However, I am all for getting all the activity specific training we can, becoming proficient at the activity (isn't that what leadership is?) and for covering our tails liability wise. I just think the BSA has it all wrong or mostly wrong as it relates to canyoneering.

I'll be done. I can tell by your post your hands are tied and you are done.

**Brian in SLC** · 06-07-2010, 01:02 PM

I'll poke at a few points. Interesting topic.

I was in the scouts as a kid and think its a good program.

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Keeper pot hole anyone? Natural anchors anyone? Potshots? Stemming? Canyon rescue techniques? Flash flood awareness? Moving a group through a canyon efficiently? Meat anchors?

Would scout leaders really take kids in "those" kind of canyons? Shades of the Kolob disaster come to mind...

"Item 7: Environmental Conditions" in the "Climb on Safely" literature covers weather and I'd think flash floods.

Whether climbing or canyoneering, rescue techniques are a bit above basic top roping and rappelling skills for anyone.

Originally Posted by Scott Card

There is so much that a leader needs to know that a 10 hour class at a climbing gym or a "college level" climbing course will never teach. Also, I am certain of one thing. Climbing certification does not equal canyon experience, wisdom, canyoneering common sense, or the ability to lead in a canyon.

Same could be said of a lot of climbing too. But, doesnt' it at least impart some basic skills?

Originally Posted by Scott Card

So under Rule 4 of your link it says:
Does this mean that a canyon is not permitted since it is not an established rappelling site? What about the off the radar canyons where natural anchors are the norm?

Maybe being responsible for other folks' kids, the BSA scout masters should consider the risk and not do those kinds of canyons? You really want to take a bunch of kids "off the radar"?

And, I think there's plenty of established rappelling sites the BSA uses (at least around here in SLC) where natural anchors are used to rig rappels. Wouldn't the same skills learned to set a top rope or climbing rappel anchor, be very nearly or exactly the same for a canyon rappel?

Originally Posted by Scott Card

Canyoneering IS NOT climbing nor is it caving.

But, from the specific climbing literature I've seen, they all specify "rappelling" too. I guess I'd think the rappelling skills, and anchoring (or whatever else they teach in those 10 hour classes) would be fairly useful for canyoneering. No?

Originally Posted by Scott Card

I always had the climb on certification when I was a leader which, again, I maintain is useless.

I don't really have a dog in that hunt, but, really? "Useless"? I read through the literature and find some fairly useful stuff. At least some well thought out and useful basics.

In the past, I've seen some real junk shows out there in terms of folks learning to rappel. I think its great that the BSA has recognized there's risk and tried to bring folks up to at least a basic standard.

If it was me, I'd rather have kids go with someone who's at least had some basic instruction on rappelling (so what if its related to climbing?) rather than someone who's done a bunch of canyons with no formal training whatsoever. Climbing skills and canyoneering skills are, IMHO, very closely related, no matter how much folks try to set them apart. Rappelling is rappelling. Setting or inspecting anchors and rigging: same. And so on. Its not apples to carrots. More like...uhh...apples to pears? Ha ha. Both are fruits. Canyoneers and climbers that is.

Pretty interesting stuff. Good luck out there and stay safe!

-Brian in SLC

**Scott Card** · 06-07-2010, 03:18 PM