ZAC is really branching out

[rcwild]

Hey, they did years of exploration and development of gear specific to making these canyons accessible without disrupting the pristine condition of them.

Actually, they didn't, but it's great hype.

[Iceaxe]

Just a thought.... but if I paid someone $425 per day to guide my butt I'd take a lot of pictures.... and if someone told me I couldn't post my pictures or TR to the interwebs I'd tell them to kiss my ass!

Sharing your experience when you get home is a big part of what you paid for.

[Pelon1]

Since this cat is now out of the bag on Bogley, maybe I can do a TR without giving enough specifics to open the flood gates to those foolish enough to try it on their own. Go with these guys or make sure your life insurance is paid up before hand.

It does seem ZAC is really branching out!! (and its working!!)
http://tinyurl.com/326jq2e

[oldno7]

It does seem ZAC is really branching out!! (and its working!!)
http://tinyurl.com/326jq2e

Aww, come on now---You're not being fair. I'm sure Mr. Dean has spent years out canyoneering with hundreds of us, and after this hands on experience, he can clearly see no one has a chance of surviving in a Lake Powell canyon without the assistance of ZAC.

[mdd]

Just a thought.... but if I paid someone $425 per day to guide my butt I'd take a lot of pictures.... and if someone told me I couldn't post my pictures or TR to the interwebs I'd tell them to kiss my ass!

Sharing your experience when you get home is a big part of what you paid for.

I agree, but I think ZAC may be more concerned with keeping rival guide companies from moving in on their turf, at least for as long as they can.

I've been curious though ever since Desert Highlight's canyons started going public. I had a chat with one of the guides at SJMG near Ouray, and he said they have to get each canyon they guide specified in their permits, they can't get a general permit for an area. They permit through the USFS. I don't know if the BLM or whoever has the same requirement, but if so aren't permits a matter of public record available to anyone who requests to see them? If so it seems easy to me to figure out where they are guiding, unless they allow super secret names.


M

*For the record I'm asking out of curiosity. I could care less if these canyons are published or not and I don't have too much interest in seeing them.

[moab mark]

Just a thought.... but if I paid someone $425 per day to guide my butt I'd take a lot of pictures.... and if someone told me I couldn't post my pictures or TR to the interwebs I'd tell them to kiss my ass!

Sharing your experience when you get home is a big part of what you paid for.

A little different twist on this. I go deep sea fishing in Florida alot and when you get on the boat the guides request to search your bags for GPS's. If you will not allow them they politely ask you to leave. They take their fishing very seriously.

[trackrunner]

I've been curious though ever since Desert Highlight's canyons started going public. I had a chat with one of the guides at SJMG near Ouray, and he said they have to get each canyon they guide specified in their permits, they can't get a general permit for an area. They permit through the USFS. I don't know if the BLM or whoever has the same requirement, but if so aren't permits a matter of public record available to anyone who requests to see them? If so it seems easy to me to figure out where they are guiding, unless they allow super secret names.


M

*For the record I'm asking out of curiosity. I could care less if these canyons are published or not and I don't have too much interest in seeing them.

seams like a reasonable conclusion to me. granted I have no idea how the permit process works with different land agencies.

[EvergreenDean]

OK, in retrospect I will re-phrase my initial statement. I am certain that there are many folks on this site that are perfectly capable of doing these canyons. I would SUGGEST learning how ZAC does them, using sandtraps and pot shots, and in many cases I am not aware of other techniques that would work without bolting, although you may know stuff I don't. Very little anchor material in there. Obstacles well beyond what I have seen and read about in other canyons, and yes I have done some tough ones...without guides. I have been canyoneering for approximately one year. I have done roughly 25-30 technical canyons and paid for exactly ONE trip...Powell. I am friends with Steve at ZAC and was invited at cost, not $425 per day. I have canyoneered with a few ZAC folks several times before but never a paying "client". I was happy to pay as I felt I owed them since I'd been hanging around for free for the last year. I think the logistics of running these canyons puts them out of most people's reach (start by owning a boat, knowing the lake, and having the technical gear mentioned above and knowledge to use it). I believe the high price they charge is not a bad value considering part of the price of admission is finding these places and potentially being able to return on your own. Try googling Centaur, Pegasus, Iron Horse canyons...you get exactly ZERO. I envy JZ and Tom, as they have found a way to make a living doing what we all love to do. I owe my friends there for introducing me to this great sport (again, as a friend of Steve's..no charge), and I want to see them succeed. I will give them my business whenever I can (renting dry suits, buying gear etc). This is a great trip, and even if you feel like I do about backpacking or snowboarding (I would NEVER think of paying someone to lead me...I do the leading), this might be an exception. Similarly, if I get an invite to get helicoptered up to Shaun White's private training area outside Silverton for a price, I would make an exception. That's on public land, too, but a
closely kept secret. Does that clear thing up?

I started to post pics Friday but realized my faves were taken by others on the trip. I will get their permission so you can see the best ones.

So, are you saying they are lying when they tell me they've been exploring these for several years and there are roughly 30 people on this globe that are out there running them? Have I drank too much of the kool-aid?

Look forward to seeing you crusty veterans in the canyons and annoying you as I pick your brains to gain more knowledge. Pics from the arrogant "newbie" will follow soon. Anyone I led through North Wash last week willing to step up and defend me here? I'm getting hammered!

[rcwild]

Have I drank too much of the kool-aid?

Canyoneers talk a lot about beer, but kool-aid is consumed in much greater quantities.

Anyone I led through North Wash last week willing to step up and defend me here? I'm getting hammered!

Don't take any of it personally, Dean. Welcome to the canyoneering community.

[trackrunner]

Pics from the arrogant "newbie" will follow soon. Anyone I led through North Wash last week willing to step up and defend me here? I'm getting hammered!

Don't take any of it personally, Dean. Welcome to the canyoneering community.

X2

you may have change your "rookie" rank but you'll learn some posters are all bark no bite

one person called me an ignorant moron for suggesting the removal of fixed ropes in mystery because it was trash. few weeks later personally offered to loan gear free of charge to outfit some friends. so don't take it personally. they may actually be jealous

[vader]

I've been curious though ever since Desert Highlight's canyons started going public. I had a chat with one of the guides at SJMG near Ouray, and he said they have to get each canyon they guide specified in their permits, they can't get a general permit for an area. They permit through the USFS. I don't know if the BLM or whoever has the same requirement, but if so aren't permits a matter of public record available to anyone who requests to see them? If so it seems easy to me to figure out where they are guiding, unless they allow super secret names.

I think you might be onto something. I will be watching this discussion. If it goes Hush Hush then you might be right

[Spidey]

The BLM does not have a blanket policy. The specificity of your permit will vary from field office to field office. I have found that they all have very different requirements. Lake Powell is not under BLM jurisdiction. It is operated by the NRA people back in washington.

[Iceaxe]

Yes, the permits are public record and should list the location of the Lake Powell canyons ZAC is guiding.....

The first time I learned about several of Desert Highlights routes was from someone that took a look at Desert Highlights NPS file. The rival guide deal could be a problem... from what I'm told the reason that Desert Highlights did not get their Arches NP permit renewed was because several rival guide companies were also requesting permits and the new Super decided it was easier to ban commercial guiding inside the park then it was to deal with all the permit requests.

As for keeping beta secret from privateers I've found the only thing that promotes is lots of bolting. Once folks learn about a canyon that requires advanced anchor skills they go load loaded for bear..... which includes plenty of bolts to engineer their way through the route. To date the only way I've found to stop bolts from popping up on such a route is to make paint by number beta available for the difficult problems.... in other words... education works better then secerts.... YMMV....

[Iceaxe]

A little different twist on this. I go deep sea fishing in Florida alot and when you get on the boat the guides request to search your bags for GPS's. If you will not allow them they politely ask you to leave. They take their fishing very seriously.

To me.... agreeing to conditions before the fact is a totally different set of rules than being told what you can do after the fact.... I've turned down canyon beta a lot of times because the conditions and terms attached to the beta were not something I felt comfortable with.... and just like everyone else... I've been given a lot of beta that had conditions attached.... so long as it's all up front I have no problem with that....

Of course the biggest condition usually attached to canyon beta is "I didn't give this to you"....

[Jaxx]

Its a funny idea, but you shouldn't even joke about clicking on the ads to raise money as google will ban sites for habib invalid clicks with no reasonable appeal process. one of the terms of having adsense is that you NEVER try to urge your visitors to click on ads.

So serious that I shouldn't even JOKE about it. That's pretty dramatic.

[EvergreenDean]

Aww, come on now---You're not being fair. I'm sure Mr. Dean has spent years out canyoneering with hundreds of us, and after this hands on experience, he can clearly see no one has a chance of surviving in a Lake Powell canyon without the assistance of ZAC.

oldno7....check your bank register and you will see that you have recently been a beneficiary of my "inexperience". BTW, great training area Steve has set up at GOG. Best replication of Utah canyons I have seen out here.

[CarpeyBiggs]

you guys miss one detail... ZAC isn't guiding on lake powell NRA. they are on navajo land.

[Iceaxe]

you guys miss one detail... ZAC isn't guiding on lake powell NRA. they are on navajo land.

That might be worse..... a few years back I seem to remember a (hiking) guide ran into trouble with Aramark, the licensed lake concessionaire, for something similar. I don't know the details....

It had nothing to do with the hiking or Navajo Land.... the problem is Aramark is/was the only one permitted to load folks into a boat and guide for money..... and they didn't like the competition....

[CarpeyBiggs]

these guys aren't scrubs. they are the best guiding company in southern utah. they've done their homework. they have a BOAT permit for the lake from aramark, AND they have a GUIDING permit for the navajo land.

when they say they've spent a few years working out the logistics, that's what they mean.

bottom line - when it comes to guiding, the ZAC guys have probably put together the best canyon product available, without exaggeration. their entire product is impressive, from what I can gather. i've only been around them a few times, but the bottom line is they've got some amazing stuff they can guide down there. some of the best canyons, and they are committed to a leave no trace ethic, in canyons and at camp.

[oldno7]

oldno7....check your bank register and you will see that you have recently been a beneficiary of my "inexperience". BTW, great training area Steve has set up at GOG. Best replication of Utah canyons I have seen out here.

I know you took a course from Steve, I'm just merely pointing out that you made a "blanket" statement that is misleading.
Stating everyone will need life insurance if not with ZAC. There are a lot of capable folks on here and some--not so much.
My statement had a huge dressing of sarcasm piled on top of it. But I think you saw the light.

Edit: Actually I'd love to do some canyons with you some day-----do you know anything about the Lake Powell area?