WCCM... zion beta and questionable gear recommendations

[Ryebrye]

reading in the thread on ratings, I decided to look at their canyonbeta site.

http://canyonbeta.com/2010/02/pine-creek/

For pine creek - they recommend using their "layering system" which consists of this:

http://canyonbeta.com/2010/01/wccm-layering-system/

On that page, I get that they really like NRS stuff when they talk about the anti-gravity top, the dry tops, the dry pants, etc. What I don't get is that they recommend the Seal Skinz socks - which in my opinion are probably the worst neoprene socks made over any of the NRS expedition socks - which in my opinion are among the best.

I might recommend SealSkinz to people I don't like very much as some kind of cruel joke, but even I'm not that mean.

Ok, then moving on to other sections of the beta:

Permits from the Zion N.P. Visitors Center

Well... technically true, but more accurate would be to say the Backcountry desk at the visitors center.

Please note the longest rappel in bold below and the recommended rope above refers to WCCM rule which is to bring 3 times the longest rappel of rope into any canyon route.

Ok, this part confuses me somewhat. What's the purpose of 3 times the rope aside from building a strong back? Is this explained in their book why they say you need 3x the rope?

Maybe if I was teaching complete beginners how to do canyons I would recommend this (if I sold rope, that is)

If you want to do both Pine Creek and Keyhole following their gear recommendations you are going to have to make a choice... You can do pine creek first with your 3 120' ropes and then cut two of them down so you can have the required 3 60' ropes for Keyhole, or you can carry 3 120' rope and 3 60' ropes. (In other words, you have to buy a spool of rope to do both of those canyons on a regular basis) [ After all... Carrying a single 120' rope would be a foolhardy deathwish in keyhole! ]

If you follow the WCCM method and attempt to do Heaps in a party of 3, each of you will be carrying 300 feet of rope through the canyon. But maybe since Heaps would be a 5B R V in their system, they'd recommend you'd be "extra safe" and carry 4x the amount of rope? So maybe just carry two spools through - just to be safe.

[trackrunner]

What's the purpose of 3 times the rope aside from building a strong back? Is this explained in their book why they say you need 3x the rope?

I've heard this from other people not part of ATS. One is for a backup incase you loose a rope, have to cut and leave a rope, core shot, etc so you can complete the canyon. Cord, webbing, bra straps, packs tied together can count for your extra pull side.

[Ryebrye]

2X rope and 1x accessory cord would accomplish the same thing in a lot less weight.

[trackrunner]

personally I favor asking the ladies for their bras to form my extra pull strand. but if you want to carry cord . . .

[Don]

personally I favor asking the ladies for their bras to form my extra pull strand. but if you want to carry cord . . .

[Iceaxe]

Their beta sucks... this is the first rap in Englestead...

Option 1: 50' left of the main watercourse fall is a tall Pine tree used to rig the 1st 300' drop.

Option 2: Rappel from same tree 90' traversing "rappellers right" to a small ledge and a set of bolts located underneath a large block. Rappel 200' from these bolts to the bottom.

If doing the 300' rap they have the wrong anchor.... and if doing the option.... I assume they mean your "other right"...

[ratagonia]

I've heard this from other people not part of ATS. One is for a backup incase you loose a rope, have to cut and leave a rope, core shot, etc so you can complete the canyon. Cord, webbing, bra straps, packs tied together can count for your extra pull side.

If one is cautious, carrying 3X rope is a good idea. Yes, certainly good for me as a rope seller, but good for you too. Very few people exercise this level of caution.

When I am guiding, I have 3X. I always have a rescue rope that is in the bottom of my pack, and is rarely used. And ALWAYS comes down last. If I had to do a pickoff or assist, or a lower of a double-rope, I have the assets to do it with. When working with an assistant guide, unless the assistant is well trained and 'packing', I stay in back with the Rescue Rope. If I go down before the assistant, and there are still clients at the top, I would leave my pack (or at least the rescue rope) with the assistant.

As a "rule", carrying 3X might be a good rule. I apply it judiciously on non-guided trips. In heavy-water canyons - a very good idea. With substantial flow it is more likely to stick a rope and have to cut it. In canyons with abrasive sharp edged cutting edges, probably a good idea. Certainly, if the group is large, it is less of a problem to carry more ropes, and we generally do it anyway to speed things up.

Apply to specific canyons. In Engelstead, how much rope to carry? My standard for a large group is TWO 300 footers set up side by side for the first rap, and one or two 120 footers for the rest of the canyon. Sometimes, a mule can be acquired to pull out the 300 footers. Only one rappel in the rest of the canyon is longer than 60 feet, so I feel pretty safe with two 120 footers = 2X. But then again, I don't take first-timers down Engelstead (unless it is a Bogleyfest!!).

Remember Rule Number One - "There are no rules"...

Uh, well, the better set is the Two Rules of Canyoneering.
Rule #1: Don't Fetch up and Die!
Rule #2: if you break Rule #1, don't take anyone with you!

Tom

[Ryebrye]

Yeah, their beta in Zion seems pretty questionable - which I can take two ways. Either it's because they don't come up here much, or it is because they suck at writing beta.

Either way, because of that I'm hesitant to take any of their other beta seriously except for maybe the name of the canyon and the general location, and then go try to find quality beta elsewhere. Some of the other canyons they have listed in other areas I'm not familiar with sound pretty cool.

[ratagonia]

Their beta sucks... this is the first rap in Englestead...



If doing the 300' rap they have the wrong anchor.... and if doing the option.... I assume they mean your "other right"...

Dyslexic this morning, Shane? Thank Dog for more reliable beta sources. Uh, yeah. Not a very good description, but accurate enough. Perhaps you choose different anchor locations, or face out when you rappel, but I go off that there same tree; and I usually face the cliff when rappelling, in which case the transfer anchor is to my right, the first right.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Dyslexic this morning, Shane?

What was I thinking.... I meant my other left....