Hooks

[Iceaxe]

How many of you carry hooks when canyoneering? And what do you carry?

If I'm descending a route that I don't have beta on I always carry a Fifi, Talon and a Cliffhanger. The Cliffhanger is by far the most useful and gets used a lot for a multiple of different things.


Cliffhanger in action.



Fifi



Talon

[Brian in SLC]

I really like the "throw" of a BD grappling hook. If I'm carrying hooks, I typically carry two of those and two bat hooks: usually either a Leeper and a Pika with the split tip, or, a custom Cliffhanger cut down and sharpened to fit a perfect 3/8" drilled hole (which is, oddly enough, the same size bit I usually carry in my bolt kit).

Also will toss in the Happy Hooker with a Pika Ibis hook.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[jman]

I got a cliffhanger, pika and of course the happy hooker.
And speaking of ascending (out of potholes in your context), I also carry my two handled ascenders and foot loops (standard).

And just a quick-derail, but in the context of ascending, why don't many guidebooks teach about the bachman (sp?) method. It's basically a prussik, but you use your extra biners which act as a handle. Very easy. any ideas? Is it somehow less safe then other methods of quick ascending?

[Cirrus2000]

Never tried a bachman, though I've read about them. Should give it a shot sometime.

I've been meaning to pick up a couple of hooks lately - never used one. Got my eye on a fifi and a talon.

[nat]

If I am in a canyon I haven't done before, I will usually carry an Ibis.

Nat

[oldno7]

I got a cliffhanger, pika and of course the happy hooker.
And speaking of ascending (out of potholes in your context), I also carry my two handled ascenders and foot loops (standard).

And just a quick-derail, but in the context of ascending, why don't many guidebooks teach about the bachman (sp?) method. It's basically a prussik, but you use your extra biners which act as a handle. Very easy. any ideas? Is it somehow less safe then other methods of quick ascending?

jman, my friend...If you use a carabiner in a bachman, for a handle, you could fall to your death, or worse, fall 30' and break your ankles. Please don't do this. Grabbing the carabiner on a bachman, releases it!!!! It is somewhat easy to release. For that reason when we teach it for ascending, it is only used for a footloop. If it fails, you are still attached by your harness. Look to use a heden or maybe klemheist instead on the harness attachment, if you want to ascend using hitches.
Handled ascenders are overkill for canyoneering. They work well but are bulky and heavy compared to a ropeman or tiblocs. The only time I use a handled ascender is if I know I will be doing a lot of ascending. Then I use one handled and a croll and torse.
And back on subject--I carry talons when thinking hooks might be needed. I also have an ibis on a fake happy hooker, but rarely use it.

[Scott P]

I carry Talons, Cliff Hanger and Ibis and sometimes a Happy Hooker in canyons I haven't done before.

[mrbrejcha]

I've only carried bat hooks through Imlay.

Shane, what do you use the Fifi for?

[Scott Card]

I've only carried the ibis and talon. I have some others but those were bought in the days of noobiedom and mass unnecessary gear purchases.

[jman]

jman, my friend...If you use a carabiner in a bachman, for a handle, you could fall to your death, or worse, fall 30' and break your ankles. Please don't do this. Grabbing the carabiner on a bachman, releases it!!!! It is somewhat easy to release. For that reason when we teach it for ascending, it is only used for a footloop. If it fails, you are still attached by your harness. Look to use a heden or maybe klemheist instead on the harness attachment, if you want to ascend using hitches.
Handled ascenders are overkill for canyoneering. They work well but are bulky and heavy compared to a ropeman or tiblocs. The only time I use a handled ascender is if I know I will be doing a lot of ascending. Then I use one handled and a croll and torse.
And back on subject--I carry talons when thinking hooks might be needed. I also have an ibis on a fake happy hooker, but rarely use it.

30ft to my death...haha good one.

When I lived in Las Vegas for about 4 years I took a rock climbing class from "Sky's the Limit". They taught me 4 ways to ascend the rope if we needed to, and they said nothing wrong about the Bachmann knot using a carabiner. I tested it more than a dozen times (probably no more than 20+feet) when I didn't have the handled ascenders. Every time worked 100%, no slippage, no movement, no reason to worry.

I even googled "bachmann knot dangerous" and "bachmann knot unsafe" and "bachmann vs klemheist" and "safest friction knot" and "safest ascending knot" and not one webpage talked about Bachmann vs the Klemheist. But.........there was a scientific study done with rappelling on auto-blocks, and they said bachmann was 2nd most preferred, and klemheist was in last with 80% unsuccessful or unsafe out of 72 tests.

And how's handled ascenders overkill? They are not that much heavier - a few pounds, whoopie. I'm a young lad and can handle an extra 5 pounds. No biggie. Besides, they are EXCELLENT for pulling down the pullcord. You ever try pulling down the pull cord from heaps? That's a pain with just gloves and two people. But with handled ascenders - it's nearly bliss...so easy. Even when you think the rope is "stuck" on a different rappel, connect the handled ascender and pull and it keeps on going just fine. The only con is - they are a bit expensive.

Even carrying one handled ascender is worth the cost in my opinion. Even if you never have to jumar, it's great for a pull-cord puller, especially for women I would think.

[Cirrus2000]

I've never used my Petzl Ascensions in anger - only practicing up the local crags - but I'm sure happy to have 'em in my pack. For the sake of a few ounces (at 195g each, that's under a pound for the two - I've already got biners & slings) I'm happy to carry them.

[nat]

30ft to my death...haha good one.

And how's handled ascenders overkill? They are not that much heavier - a few pounds, whoopie. I'm a young lad and can handle an extra 5 pounds. No biggie. Besides, they are EXCELLENT for pulling down the pullcord. You ever try pulling down the pull cord from heaps? That's a pain with just gloves and two people. But with handled ascenders - it's nearly bliss...so easy. Even when you think the rope is "stuck" on a different rappel, connect the handled ascender and pull and it keeps on going just fine. The only con is - they are a bit expensive.

Even carrying one handled ascender is worth the cost in my opinion.

I totally agree with this. Handled ascenders are so quick to deploy, versatile and easy to use. I pretty much always carry at least one, if not 2 jumars. They are a bit heavy, but I think well worth it.

Nat

[trackrunner]

30ft to my death...haha good one.

When I lived in Las Vegas for about 4 years I took a rock climbing class from "Sky's the Limit". They taught me 4 ways to ascend the rope if we needed to, and they said nothing wrong about the Bachmann knot using a carabiner. I tested it more than a dozen times (probably no more than 20+feet) when I didn't have the handled ascenders. Every time worked 100%, no slippage, no movement, no reason to worry.

I even googled "bachmann knot dangerous" and "bachmann knot unsafe" and "bachmann vs klemheist" and "safest friction knot" and "safest ascending knot" and not one webpage talked about Bachmann vs the Klemheist. But.........there was a scientific study done with rappelling on auto-blocks, and they said bachmann was 2nd most preferred, and klemheist was in last with 80% unsuccessful or unsafe out of 72 tests.

And how's handled ascenders overkill? They are not that much heavier - a few pounds, whoopie. I'm a young lad and can handle an extra 5 pounds. No biggie. Besides, they are EXCELLENT for pulling down the pullcord. You ever try pulling down the pull cord from heaps? That's a pain with just gloves and two people. But with handled ascenders - it's nearly bliss...so easy. Even when you think the rope is "stuck" on a different rappel, connect the handled ascender and pull and it keeps on going just fine. The only con is - they are a bit expensive.

Even carrying one handled ascender is worth the cost in my opinion. Even if you never have to jumar, it's great for a pull-cord puller, especially for women I would think.

I believe Dave Black was using a Bachman when he took a his nasty fall.

[Iceaxe]

Shane, what do you use the Fifi for?

Probably not as it was intended... You can wedge it into tiny cracks so you have something to pull on. I've only used the fifi maybe once or twice and you could probably get away without one. The Talon I use sometimes, back in the days when we actually hooked out of potholes it was used a lot more. The Cliffhanger I use all the time, I hook with it, rappel from it, climb with it, hang it on my pack when doing a difficult toss in the hope it will snag something. If you only have on hook it should be a Cliffhanger (or ibis).

I pretty much always carry at least one, if not 2 jumars. They are a bit heavy, but I think well worth it.

Honestly.... if I carried two handled ascenders it would double the weight of gear in my pack.

[Brian in SLC]

I've only used the fifi maybe once or twice and you could probably get away without one. The Talon I use sometimes, back in the days when we actually hooked out of potholes it was used a lot more. The Cliffhanger I use all the time, I hook with it, rappel from it, climb with it, hang it on my pack when doing a difficult toss in the hope it will snag something. If you only have on hook it should be a Cliffhanger (or ibis).
Honestly.... if I carried two handled ascenders it would double the weight of gear in my pack.

I have a Pika Aardvark, I think its called. Their version of the fifi hook. Scary, but, you could single rope rappel with it off, say, a rapid or carabiner, then do the "crack the whip" type rope trick, and it pops right off the anchor. When weighted, pretty bomber.

I'm a fan of the lightweight Petzl handled ascenders too. A couple weeks ago, all I had was a Gri Gri to ascend a fixed rope with, but, my climbing partner produced a single Petzl handled ascender. Voila. Saved me havin' to grind up the rope on an autoblock or Prusik (doable, but, handle is super nice).

Yeah, for rope pulling, gettin' up a rope, etc, a handle is super nice. I think if there's ANY chance of having to ascend, I like havin' a handled ascender. At least one. In most emergency type situations, like the Pine Creek thing (who knows what the heck happened there, though...), the time saved could be fairly critical.

I do find myself tossin' in an USHBA basic more often into the pack, though...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

How many of you carry hooks when canyoneering? And what do you carry?

If I'm descending a route that I don't have beta on I always carry a Fifi, Talon and a Cliffhanger. The Cliffhanger is by far the most useful and gets used a lot for a multiple of different things.

Cliffhanger in action.

I think that is a Black Diamond "Grappling Hook". BD makes two hooks of this general shape, the Grappling Hook is the larger, and I think more useful of the two. Unfortunately, out of stock at BD at the moment.

The Fifi is meant to be used in gear (in a sling or a carabiner) and if loaded on the tip could fail by column failure. Use with extreme caution.

Tom

[ratagonia]

How many of you carry hooks when canyoneering? And what do you carry?

If I'm descending a route that I don't have beta on I always carry a Fifi, Talon and a Cliffhanger. The Cliffhanger is by far the most useful and gets used a lot for a multiple of different things.

Uh, none. Nein, zero, nyet, zip, nada. No hooks for me, thanks.

I have carried them at times, but don't find them useful. In Heaps and Imlay, for hooking drilled holes out of potholes, and in Poe and a few other places with potholes, I could carry two Talons and a drill, but I have never used them (outside Imlay, and an early misadventure in The Squeeze which was totally unnecessary). I use the Happy Hooker once in a while in Imlay, and once in Trail to escape, but otherwise have found it non-useful, and don't carry it anymore. I have rapped off the Ibis hook once, but have otherwise always found anchors when I needed them.

Differn' strokes for differn' folks!

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I think that is a Black Diamond "Grappling Hook". BD makes two hooks of this general shape, the Grappling Hook is the larger, and I think more useful of the two.

Naw, look at how narrow the base is, and, hard to see, but, the throw is way off. The cliffhanger almost curves around in a full circle to the tip. Grappling hook extends out a ways and doesn't curl back near as far.

You can "sculpt" a cliffhanger into a mini grappling hook, too, and, along with narrowing the tip for use in a drilled hole, quite handy (never leave home without it on steep limestone routes in France, for instance).


No hooks, Tom? Probably not as useful in the type of canyons you explore most often, I'd imagine. Plus, with all those willing victims, er, I mean partners...

For quickly gettin' out of circular potholes with low water, but, still enough water to require treading water, I've gotton quite a bit of use out of mine (Heaps in low water for instance).

Such a small item to carry. Gives a feller options.

Never really cared for the talon for sandstone. Probably mostly designed for fairly robust granite type rock (ala Yosemite). Distance between the hooks and their pitch out away from the main frame of the hook is so shallow, that its hard to get any bite on a sandstone feature that needs to be bigger to support the hook.

I've carved up a BD fifi too, for slick use on transient type placements, where I want a small hook to fit through a hole or biner (or the bottom shaft of an ice tool) without that cord hole bump on them. Not super functional otherwise. Probably soft enough that a person could beat them into a shallow crack like a bashy though (!).

Would be handy for the euro style aid ladders, though (fifi hook on top of ladder steps). I'd worry about either the placement piece going bye bye or add a tether though. Some of those potholes in Zion would be fun to go fishin' in at low water to see how much gear is at their bottom...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

The hook I use most (the one shown in the picture) is a Cliffhanger. A Grappling hook would probably work just as well. The Cliffhanger was probably just what was on the shelf the day I walked in to buy a big hook.

Nowdays I use hooks more for getting into potholes then getting out of them. I find hooks most handy when I just want a secrue handline that I can tug on when downclimbing a questionable friction pitch. Also nice to have a hook or two in the Moab area where you have a lot of huge sandstone bowls that are smooth with zero anchor building material. Even in the big smooth bowls we can usually find a crack or feature to hook.

Cliffhanger Hook


Grappling Hook

[AJ]

I usually carry an Ibis on unknown canyons. Pothole escape kit has two talons, attached to etriers. That comes with me on canyons I know have pothole escapes, or on unknown canyons.

Thanks for all the neat perspectives and views... Good stuff.