Canyoneering Spam???

[Scott Card]

Yesterday, Spidey posted an invite to a free canyoneering clinic. So I was curious as to how many went to a free canyoneering class last night in Orem (about 20 actually). I was going to post a question as to the success and response to the class and what was discussed. But alas..... the thread was deleted. In speaking with Spidey this morning, the invite to the free class was apparently considered Spam by our beloved Ice. Spam??? Really Ice?

So what is spam on a canyoneering forum? I see posts about sales at REI (which I consider an overpriced yuppy store). We have a couple of vendors of all things canyoneering posting re: gear or new gear or new stores all the time. What about the announcements for canyoneering books? I personally see nothing wrong in any of that. Spidey is a member of the forum, he lurks often and participates occasionally in this section and in the political section. So, the inconsistency is painfully obvious and smacks of being only personal and ego driven.

Personally, I do not consider an invite for free training spam. I actually want to know about this stuff. I really don't care who is putting it on. Practice is good, free is good. What part of free training or free practice session is spam? I bluntly ask, how is that worse than the announcement of Bo's new store, Tom's new gear announcements, the Arizona canyoneering book announcements, an invite to participate in the ACA training, REI rebates, etc., etc.???? Really Ice, I am a bit disgusted with this one. I have had some posts deleted, but whatever. But to delete something that is not only free but valuable to the general canyoneering population is unacceptable. Training, paid or free is a GOOD thing. I don't consider announcements of canyoneering specific training spam. I know you have a gripe with Rich and the ACA and others closely associated. Most of us don't. Now that I have more than a decade of canyoneering under my belt, I still want to know about training, information and gear. This, I thought, was why the forum existed. This is why I am here on this forum. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am willing to listen to the explainations of the inconsistency. Other opinions as to what is acceptable are also welcome. Helmet on --Flame on.

[Bo_Beck]

Yesterday, Spidey posted an invite to a free canyoneering clinic. So I was curious as to how many went to a free canyoneering class last night in Orem (about 20 actually). I was going to post a question as to the success and response to the class and what was discussed. But alas..... the thread was deleted. In speaking with Spidey this morning, the invite to the free class was apparently considered Spam by our beloved Ice. Spam??? Really Ice?

So what is spam on a canyoneering forum? I see posts about sales at REI (which I consider an overpriced yuppy store). We have a couple of vendors of all things canyoneering posting re: gear or new gear or new stores all the time. What about the announcements for canyoneering books? I personally see nothing wrong in any of that. Spidey is a member of the forum, he lurks often and participates occasionally in this section and in the political section. So, the inconsistency is painfully obvious and smacks of being only personal and ego driven.

Personally, I do not consider an invite for free training spam. I actually want to know about this stuff. I really don't care who is putting it on. Practice is good, free is good. What part of free training or free practice session is spam? I bluntly ask, how is that worse than the announcement of Bo's new store, Tom's new gear announcements, the Arizona canyoneering book announcements, an invite to participate in the ACA training, REI rebates, etc., etc.???? Really Ice, I am a bit disgusted with this one. I have had some posts deleted, but whatever. But to delete something that is not only free but valuable to the general canyoneering population is unacceptable. Training, paid or free is a GOOD thing. I don't consider announcements of canyoneering specific training spam. I know you have a gripe with Rich and the ACA and others closely associated. Most of us don't. Now that I have more than a decade of canyoneering under my belt, I still want to know about training, information and gear. This, I thought, was why the forum existed. This is why I am here on this forum. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am willing to listen to the explainations of the inconsistency. Other opinions as to what is acceptable are also welcome. Helmet on --Flame on.

I agree with what you've said Scott. I have no idea that anything was deleted, and if so who was involved in the deletion, but if it was deleted as spam, then my announcement of the upcoming bouldering comp. and store party in the climbing forum should also be deleted. I apologize if I seemed presumptious about freedom of announcing upcoming events, trainings and parties. I assumed that this is what the forum was partly about? I did join Bogley with my donation a few months back and believe in what this website is about and represents.

[Cirrus2000]

Hmmm, interesting. Ice? Somebody?

I certainly see no reason that mention of this free workshop should be deleted as spam. Both commercial and non-commercial enterprises are mentioned here, and (in my opinion) are welcome when they are on topic, and when the posters are active, involved members of either the Bogley community or the activity's community. Spidey posts occasionally, and is a valued member (to say the least) of the canyoneering community. Where's the problem?

[Felicia]

Ice, I would like to hear your explanation of your reasoning behind this action.

[Iceaxe]

With regards to spam.... Those who provide value and participate in Bogley on a regular bases are allowed to promote outside interests, provided they keep it within reason. This has always been our policy.

Bogley is hit by literally hundreds of people attempting to spam the forum each day. Our software keeps most of the spam out, and our forum moderates do the rest of the house cleaning. The final call on what is deleted as spam is up to the forum moderators.

So.... bottom line.... if you want to promote an outside interest that is related to Bogley that's cool..... just participate in the forums. Consider it free advertising for providing a value to our members.

If your only reason for posting on Bogley is to promote an outside interest or product than please contact Bogley about purchasing advertising space.

With regards to the specific post in question: The only time spidey posts in the canyon section is when he is promoting an outside interest. Spidey was asked to either participate in other Bogley canyon threads or stop promoting his outside interests (spamming) the forum. If Scott Card, Bo_Beck, Cirrus2000, or Felicia had of made the same post it would have remained, as you are all contributing members. Sometimes the line is fine between what is spam and what is not, and its the moderators call.

PS: We are always looking to add new moderators that are interested in making Bogley a better forum. Apply within....

[Felicia]

Ice, thank you for the prompt explanation.

[Scott Card]

With regards to the specific post in question: The only time spidey posts in the canyon section is when he is promoting an outside interest. Spidey was asked to either participate in other Bogley canyon threads or stop promoting his outside interests (spamming) the forum. If Scott Card, Bo_Beck, Cirrus2000, or Felicia had of made the same post it would have remained, as you are all contributing members. Sometimes the line is fine between what is spam and what is not, and its the moderators call.

PS: We are always looking to add new moderators that are interested in making Bogley a better forum. Apply within....

I'm not buying it Ice. Spidey has posted in this section as well as the climbing section and political section as I remember. Yes, he doesn't have thousands of posts. He has a day job that is outside, away from a computer. He builds homes. He and his canyoneering abilities have been discussed many times in this section. He has even cooked for a bunch of you people. His post was canyoneering specific. It was free. I am calling BS. I didn't know there was a post threshold.

Bo, please keep posting invites, store announcements, etc. I have stopped by your store a half dozen times to meet you, the man, the legend and to personally thank you for being there in case I do something stupid in Zion. Tom, please keep us up to date as to gear, your site, etc. I hope Rich keeps us up to date as to the ACA offerings. This is a canyoneering section after all. My post was made not to discourage anyone but our moderator.

[DOSS]

I think the sticking point in your statement is that it is fully arbitrary.. if that is how you want it so be it but otherwise how many posts exactly constitutes participation on the forums?..

[Jaxx]

Can I vote to let Spidey post free clinic info? I know I don't have alot of pull but I missed out on the info

As a canyoneering noob who is also poor I need all the free training I can get.
Spidey has been really helpful when I have talked with him over at the Out N Back store in Orem. Mabey I should make a separate thread about how much I love Spidey and what he is doing over at Out N Back to grow their canyoneering selection.

I understand rules are rules but mabey an exception could be made for free clinics that help others like me out.

[asdf]

I see posts about sales at REI (which I consider an overpriced yuppy store).

ahem...
REI will accept returns for ANYTHING (except ropes) for any reason. So pretty much you purchase something and you can have it replaced repeatedly for life no questions asked. Buy boots .. wear them out ... get new ones.... Its that simple.

/derail

[Cirrus2000]

I understand rules are rules but mabey an exception could be made for free clinics that help others like me out.

Seems to me that this isn't actually a rule - more of what you'd call a guideline. Yeah, arbitrary's the word, TooeleCherokee. And I'm calling bullshit.

There are spammers (remember that bike advertisement that showed up in like 10 different forum areas, or the Asian Escort Service posts?) and then there are valued members of a community offering a free service. Spidey doesn't post here much, maybe, but it's not like he's swooping in to plaster ads around, hoping to make a bunch of money or drive up his hit count so he can get more Google Ads revenue.

I first read the other generic "Spammers" post, most of which is included in your reply above, Ice, and had to wonder WTF you were talking about. Spidey's no spammer.

The guy shows up in a lot of trip reports, he's a busy, active member of the community, and he doesn't post here very often - but he does post. (We've debated in the political thread a little bit.)

It's your sandbox, and you can kick out the kids you don't want to play with, but that doesn't mean nobody's going to say anything.


So yeah, I'm calling bullshit. Nothing I can do about it, but I'm calling it as I see it.

[Iceaxe]

Forum spam is the creating of messages that are advertisements.

We have three choices to deal with spam
1. Not allow it.
2. Allow it.
3. Allow human moderators to make the call.

Bogley, uses method #3. It is not prefect, sometimes human moderators make mistake. Moderators are required to make judgement calls. Moderator is a thankless job, but good moderators are the life blood of any successful forum and are highly valued at Bogley.

For what it's worth.... No message or Spam on Bogley is just deleted..... When an active Bogley member steps over the line or abuses their privileges they are contacted politely in a private message and the situation is explain to them. They are told what they did wrong and what they can do to correct the issue. In this particular case Spidey was sent such a private message.

If you have a better idea of how we should deal with forum spam we would love to hear it. Anything to make the forum better.

[R]

Does this mean I can't mention richardbarron.net ? Because richardbarron.net is my official web site, and I think the members get a lot from richardbarron.net , not to mention that richardbarron.net is an excellent resource for those who want to read what richardbarron.net has to say. In conclusion, visit richardbarron.net .

Brought to you by richardbarron.net

This is not spam.

[Jaxx]

Does this mean I can't mention richardbarron.net ? Because richardbarron.net is my official web site, and I think the members get a lot from richardbarron.net , not to mention that richardbarron.net is an excellent resource for those who want to read what richardbarron.net has to say. In conclusion, visit richardbarron.net .

Brought to you by richardbarron.net

This is not spam.

That was Spidey's problem. He forgot to add the disclaimer at the bottom that his post wasn't spam

[Scott Card]

Does this mean I can't mention richardbarron.net ? Because richardbarron.net is my official web site, and I think the members get a lot from richardbarron.net , not to mention that richardbarron.net is an excellent resource for those who want to read what richardbarron.net has to say. In conclusion, visit richardbarron.net .

Brought to you by richardbarron.net

This is not spam.

Now that was funny... Thanks Richard for the good laugh.

[Iceaxe]

Does this mean I can't mention richardbarron.net ? Because richardbarron.net is my official web site, and I think the members get a lot from richardbarron.net , not to mention that richardbarron.net is an excellent resource for those who want to read what richardbarron.net has to say. In conclusion, visit richardbarron.net .

Brought to you by richardbarron.net

This is not spam.

Richard.... Please check your private messages.... you have an important message from the management.

[Randi]

Forum spam is the creating of messages that are advertisements.

We have three choices to deal with spam
1. Not allow it.
2. Allow it.
3. Allow human moderators to make the call.

Bogley, uses method #3. It is not prefect, sometimes human moderators make mistake. Moderators are required to make judgement calls. Moderator is a thankless job, but good moderators are the life blood of any successful forum and are highly valued at Bogley.

For what it's worth.... No message or Spam on Bogley is just deleted..... When an active Bogley member steps over the line or abuses their privileges they are contacted politely in a private message and the situation is explain to them. They are told what they did wrong and what they can do to correct the issue. In this particular case Spidey was sent such a private message.

If you have a better idea of how we should deal with forum spam we would love to hear it. Anything to make the forum better.

I think the method (human judgement call) is valid, but when the human errs in his judgement and is called on it (especially by multiple regular posters - some of whom happen to be Bogley Big-shots), he ought to re-post the message.

It's obvious to me that your deleting the message (or whoever deleted it) was a bad judgement call. I read that post, and it had nothing to do with spamming the board, was completely legitimate, and a no logical reason to delete it exists.

Along with reinstating the post, please try to make better judgement calls in the future.

[Cirrus2000]

I've reconsidered my approach since I made my last post. I was confrontational and belligerent (for me.) I apologize, though I'll leave it up in the interest of full disclosure.

What I would rather do, Ice (instead of spewing the word "bullshit" around, and accusing you of behaving like a schoolyard kid, and generally stamping my little feet) is encourage you to reconsider how posts are determined to be spam, and whether sometimes a little leeway should be afforded.

In this situation, considering that:

1. the poster is an occasional contributor to the forum,
2. his posts range from canyoneering to ice climbing to religio-political discussion,
3. he is well known in the canyoneering community,
4. the post in question was about a non-commercial event, and
5. the event could have been of benefit to many on the forum

I think that the forum would have been better served by permitting the post to have remained.

Wow, I feel like such an adult right now. It sure is far too easy to get pissy and petulant on the internetz.

[denaliguide]

Asian Escorts???? how did i miss that?

[Sombeech]

Asian Escort Service posts?

These types of messages are not deleted, but rather moved to a private forum where we can confirm or deny the validity of the claims.