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Thread: My Rappelling Accident in Moab

  1. #101
    Jaman... this might be the type of devise your mom was talking about. To rappel on the ClipUp it looks like you would have a deadman's throttle (let go of the throttle and it locks up).

    ClipUp
    http://gearjunkie.com/click-up-belay-device

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  3. #102
    Hehe, such debate over the perfect device!

    I've gone back and forth on the "perfect" belay device for canyoneering. I don't think there is one. Personally, I like either an 8 (to keep wear off my biners) or a steel atc-xp (see dmm's V-twin device... weighs only about 1oz more than an aluminum BD atc-xp) with a steel biner.

    Honestly though, if you are tackling a nasty, big, long, wet, free-hanging rappel with a lot of weight on a thin, single strand rope, you really shouldn't exclude the MUNTER HITCH. It's amazing how much control this gives you. Does it twist the rope? Moreso if you don't hold the strands in parrallel vs holding the break end diagonal or 90 degrees off to the side, but a good technique that works well.

  4. #103
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    ststephen, I couldn't believe the one nurse was like that. It upset me even more as the days past...Thankfully, the Surgical Tech Center called me to do a survey of my visit, and told them explicitly about that nurse. It was not humane to be treated like that. With that said though, By far, the best Nursing I had was in Moab at the Allen Memorial Hospital. Although, my Dr at McKay Dee Hospital has been very accommodating and optimistic, with a good dose of reality. And he has a great sense of humor like me. haha

    Shane, no, that's not the device my step-mom was talking about. Brian in SLC, actually guessed it, in a few pages back if you want to see what it was.

    Since this thread keeps being posted on, I thought I would give everyone a update and post some awesome pics!
    It's been nearly 2 weeks since surgery, and I'm in a hard cast now, and thankfully it's short. I'm using crutches and everyone around me has been very accommodating!

    On the 21st, I will go back to have the sutures (stitches) removed, and then have another hard-cast for 3months. I'm REALLY fortunate.
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    "He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
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  5. #104
    Mountain Man
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    Old thread being dug up here, but I'm a fairly noob learning from the posts. I know Tom recommends against an autoblock in general, but it is precisely for this type of scenario that I always use an autoblock (except for rappels through or into water). I never know if my hand will spasm, if a rock will bounce down and hit me, or if something else will happen. It just seems prudent to use one as a matter of course.

    What am I missing?

  6. #105
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsr70 View Post
    Old thread being dug up here, but I'm a fairly noob learning from the posts. I know Tom recommends against an autoblock in general, but it is precisely for this type of scenario that I always use an autoblock (except for rappels through or into water). I never know if my hand will spasm, if a rock will bounce down and hit me, or if something else will happen. It just seems prudent to use one as a matter of course.

    What am I missing?
    I had my friend down below taking pics, and a belay would of stopped me. But rigging for more friction would of prevented it. However.........I did not ever think to anticipate my break hand would spasm out and lock up, as I ever never had that ever ever ever happen on my life. Ive been canyoneering since 2002, and hve done lots of canyon, including bigger free rappels (Heaps)

    It was the weirdest sensation I tell ya.
    ●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
    ●Hiking Treks (my younger brother's website): hiking guides @ www.thetrekplanner.com
    "He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
    "There are two ways to die in the desert - dehydration and drowning." -overhearing a Park Ranger at Capitol Reef N.P.
    "...the first law of gear-dynamics: gear is like a gas - it will expand to fit the available space." -Wortman, Outside magazine.
    "SEND IT, BRO!!"

  7. #106
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsr70 View Post
    Old thread being dug up here, but I'm a fairly noob learning from the posts. I know Tom recommends against an autoblock in general, but it is precisely for this type of scenario that I always use an autoblock (except for rappels through or into water). I never know if my hand will spasm, if a rock will bounce down and hit me, or if something else will happen. It just seems prudent to use one as a matter of course.

    What am I missing?
    I recommend against using an autobloc as part of your standard rappelling setup, after you pass the beginner stage.

    1. Autoblocs work only reasonably well, even when using always the same rope and autobloc. Half the time, they are pain in the patootie to manage to slide down the rope. They require a fair amount of effort.

    2. Like gloves, autoblocs can be used to mask not setting up your friction correctly.

    3. Getting used to having an autobloc can lead to bad habits. People that use an autobloc regularly can get used to just letting go of the rappel without consequences, until they happen to not have an autobloc on at that moment.

    4. I have seen many people use an "autobloc" that absolutely would not have done anything, not even slowed em down. Or they use a prusik above the device, which has many, many problems, and basically does not work. Many people who use "autoblocs" do not know how to use them effectively, thus they give a false sense of security.

    5. If you are going to use an autobloc, please learn how to use it effectively, AND save it for special occasions. After the fact, Jman's crash looks like one of those special occasions.

    I have somewhat the same speil on bottom belays, but... use it much more often, and the bottom belay has saved my bacon on a couple of occasions, including that last rap in Heaps (thanks Chris, and thanks radios).

    Tom

  8. #107
    In medicine, we call discussions like this post-mortems. This is perhaps not the most delicate expression considering the favorable outcome of this story.

    When I spent two days with Jim Clery and Excursions of Escalante, one of the things I was encourage to forget was the autoblock. For sure this is a fussy set-up, and no substitute for the correct friction on the rappel device. It does risk getting sucked into the rappel device unless the rappel device is extended with makes things even more fiddly. Still, with the correct friction dialed in, I was sure happy with the autoblock on the last rap on Behunin.

    So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use? Not saying I am going to use that there next week (I promise Tom). Just figure this is pretty much the maximum stress test for a rappel set up that we have for canyoneering. I am curious what folks use when they feel they need belt and suspenders.

    Ken

  9. #108
    Canyon Wrangler canyoncaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use? Not saying I am going to use that there next week (I promise Tom). Just figure this is pretty much the maximum stress test for a rappel set up that we have for canyoneering. I am curious what folks use when they feel they need belt and suspenders.
    BMS micro-rack. Plenty of friction every time. No extra carabiners or autoblocs necessary.

  10. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by canyoncaver View Post
    BMS micro-rack. Plenty of friction every time. No extra carabiners or autoblocs necessary.
    Yet it is interesting that the BMS site describe these products for 11 and 10 mm rope. Can these devices be used safely for 8 mm single line? At one pound for the rack, do you use this for all of your rappelling, or do you pull it out just for the big drops?

  11. #110
    Canyon Wrangler canyoncaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    Yet it is interesting that the BMS site describe these products for 11 and 10 mm rope. Can these devices be used safely for 8 mm single line? At one pound for the rack, do you use this for all of your rappelling, or do you pull it out just for the big drops?
    I was not aware that BMS only describes use for 10 and 11mm rope. Thanks for pointing this out. I would imagine that they say this because that is what most American cavers use. Their primary markets are cavers and firemen, two groups not usually known for using skinny rope. It would be interesting to find out if they have some reason for not going below 10mm or if it just did not occur to them to state that it is possible.

    Having said that, I can tell you from personal experience that we use these racks on 9 and 8mm rope all the time. The biggest drop I have done on single-line 8mm is the entrance drop to Englestead ~300ft. I believe this is similar to the drop length in Heaps, which is why I chimed in on this thread. I felt that the micro-rack offered enough control on the big drop, even on skinny rope. It did get quite hot, but then again so did our buddy's Pirana. He actually ended up with a Pirana-shaped brand on his arm!

    My wife and I, plus our small group of cavers that we go canyoneering with all use the micro-rack for all our rappels. I realize that in the canyoneering world the micro-rack is considered a large, heavy descender, but we don't really see it that way. It may be larger and heavier than a figure eight or ATC, but is much more versatile and lasts much longer. The bars on the micro are stainless steel and last for years. With the amount of rappelling that I do, I would be replacing a Pirana (or other aluminum device) every year.

  12. #111
    I currently rap with a Pirana, which I am wearing out. I have been considering switching over to an ATC but I wonder if this is adequate for skinny, single line situations. I know that it is used by some precisely in this type of situation. People who use the micro-rack seem pretty happy with them. This question might make an interesting separate thread. Will see if others address this issue.

    Ken

  13. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use?
    I've used two ATC's. Smooth. I'll also have a biner on each leg and one for above the ATC if I feel like I need additional friction.

    First time I did Heaps I just used a single ATC with no fancy rigging. We had a fairly thick 300 foot BW Static II line, though. Not enough friction, but, I wrapped it around me and used both hands. Additional friction off my wetsuit was good enough.

    I've used a munter on a leg carabiner for additional friction off a long rappel (Englestead) but I prefer the smooth and no kink double ATC rig.

    Have also used a mini CMI Firefly slightly custom modified rappel rack. Sweet.

  14. #113
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinesnaper View Post
    So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use? Not saying I am going to use that there next week (I promise Tom).
    Ken
    You're in luck...there has been some discussion on this a few years back: Last Sequence in Heaps, which device?
    ●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
    ●Hiking Treks (my younger brother's website): hiking guides @ www.thetrekplanner.com
    "He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
    "There are two ways to die in the desert - dehydration and drowning." -overhearing a Park Ranger at Capitol Reef N.P.
    "...the first law of gear-dynamics: gear is like a gas - it will expand to fit the available space." -Wortman, Outside magazine.
    "SEND IT, BRO!!"

  15. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by jman View Post
    You're in luck...there has been some discussion on this a few years back: Last Sequence in Heaps, which device?
    Ya gotta just love this group.

  16. #115

    Petzl's PET-B71 ASAP Mobile Fall Arrester

    Sounds like the Petzl's PET-B71 ASAP Mobile Fall Arrester. This device works on the same concept as a seatbelt in your car if you pull slowly it lets out pull fast and the seatbelt locks. I have one it is very simple to use and as long as you use one of the many diameter ropes it is desined for (I use 7/16" static) and rig it right you cant mess it up just set it and forget it. It can be used in rappelling or climbing. It has a very slight drag as you rappel just enough to keep the device trailing above you. If useing it as a self belay for climbing it has no drag and freely trails you up the rope. If you go to fast or fall and it locks you have to use a prusik knot step or other methed to get your weight off of it and turn the wheel backwards this unlocks it. When it locks with full weight on it it causes little to no damage to rope. I dont always use it as somethimes I like to rappel faster than it will alow (speed set not adjustable) but if I dont use it I always use a prusik knot as a self belay either above my rescue 8 or just below my brake hand cliped into the leg strap (newer way). This piece of gear is completly mechanical. price is around $200 differs a few bucks on diffrent web sites. Stay safe and have fun.

    The "clipup" is not sold as a fall arrester and if you are unconscious the device will not lock and does not sence speed. Still a cool peice of gear though.

  17. #116
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnarmy12B View Post
    Sounds like the Petzl's PET-B71 ASAP Mobile Fall Arrester. This device works on the same concept as a seatbelt in your car if you pull slowly it lets out pull fast and the seatbelt locks. I have one it is very simple to use and as long as you use one of the many diameter ropes it is desined for (I use 7/16" static) and rig it right you cant mess it up just set it and forget it. It can be used in rappelling or climbing. It has a very slight drag as you rappel just enough to keep the device trailing above you. If useing it as a self belay for climbing it has no drag and freely trails you up the rope. If you go to fast or fall and it locks you have to use a prusik knot step or other methed to get your weight off of it and turn the wheel backwards this unlocks it. When it locks with full weight on it it causes little to no damage to rope. I dont always use it as somethimes I like to rappel faster than it will alow (speed set not adjustable) but if I dont use it I always use a prusik knot as a self belay either above my rescue 8 or just below my brake hand cliped into the leg strap (newer way). This piece of gear is completly mechanical. price is around $200 differs a few bucks on diffrent web sites. Stay safe and have fun.

    The "clipup" is not sold as a fall arrester and if you are unconscious the device will not lock and does not sence speed. Still a cool peice of gear though.
    Thanks for the post John Army, and welcome to the Bog...

    Here's a link, with the Petzl video at the bottom: http://www.techtoolsupply.com/Produc...ctCode=PET-B71
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  18. #117
    any one see any problems with this anchor rig other than it posibly geting caught up at the top. this is a retrivable system doesnt leave anything at the top. wanted to try this but with 2 anchor points.

    Top red rope is around the anchor
    pink rope is rappel line
    white line is for retrival
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  19. #118
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnarmy12B View Post
    any one see any problems with this anchor rig other than it posibly geting caught up at the top. this is a retrivable system doesnt leave anything at the top. wanted to try this but with 2 anchor points.

    Top red rope is around the anchor
    pink rope is rappel line
    white line is for retrival
    That is essentially the same as: http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress...tree/index.php

    Except by putting your retrieval line inside one of the rapid links, you run the rappel rope across the retrieval rope, which is not a good idea, and un-necessary.

    It works when you have a nice, clean pull-around, but leaves quite a bit to get stuck on something.

    This is a "3X" solution, as it requires 3 times the length of the rappel in ropes and cords.

    Tom

  20. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    That is essentially the same as: http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress...tree/index.php

    Except by putting your retrieval line inside one of the rapid links, you run the rappel rope across the retrieval rope, which is not a good idea, and un-necessary.

    It works when you have a nice, clean pull-around, but leave quite a bit to get stuck on something.

    This is a "3X" solution, as it requires 3 times the length of the rappel in ropes and cords.

    Tom
    yea I see what your saying thanks Tom.

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