Ropes

[sarahlizzy]

Last year I bought a hundred metre spool of 9mm caving SRT rope at home in the UK, cut it into 33 and 66 metre lengths and hauled it over to Zion. It was cheap static and the sheath got trashed on Zion sandstone. It was also vile to tie knots in. I've hardly got any left.

While out there, Tom was kind enough to lend us one of the Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3mm ropes, and while I was initially concerned about rappelling on 8.3mm rope, that quickly turned out to be a non-issue. Compared to the cheap 9mm caving rope I'd bought it was a revelation.

This year I'll be in the market for a new rope when I get to Springdale, and am very tempted to treat myself to a 120 foot Canyon Fire. Is it still the rope to go for, or should I be considering something else?

[Iceaxe]

I use Tom's Imlay rope.... There are other good ropes, but they are more pricey.... The Imlay rope is the best value I've found.

your mileage may vary.

[Wasatch]

The 8mm Imlay rope is very nice.

[moab mark]

I use Tom's Imlay rope.... There are other good ropes, but they are more pricey.... The Imlay rope is the best value I've found.

your mileage may vary.

X2

Buy the bags also

[sarahlizzy]

Buy the bags also

Already done that bit :D

[kd7kmp]

I've got a 120 foot length of the 8.3 mm Imlay rope. It is great. I use for rapping mostly in the Robbers Roost area.

Kevin

[Cirrus2000]

What they all said!

I've got 120' of the old 8mm, 200' of Fire, and 80' of Ice (a rare collector's item, that!) With those, plus 200' of 6mm pull cord, a bagarino and a silo, there's a lot of canyons covered.

[sarahlizzy]

What they all said!

I've got 120' of the old 8mm, 200' of Fire, and 80' of Ice (a rare collector's item, that!) With those, plus 200' of 6mm pull cord, a bagarino and a silo, there's a lot of canyons covered.

Can I ask how you think the canyonfire compares to the 8mm?

[Cirrus2000]

What they all said!

I've got 120' of the old 8mm, 200' of Fire, and 80' of Ice (a rare collector's item, that!) With those, plus 200' of 6mm pull cord, a bagarino and a silo, there's a lot of canyons covered.

Can I ask how you think the canyonfire compares to the 8mm?

Well, not a huge difference in practise. I do find it a little smoother to the hand - not in the sense of slipperiness or texture, but flex. I haven't found that the extra diameter makes a big difference in the friction on rappel, but I've only rapped on it a couple of times so far (just got it on my last Utah trip.)

I think that where the biggest difference will be is in durability - Tom designed the rope to have much more material in the sheath, providing greater protection for the core (if I recall correctly.)

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks. That was also my impression about durability - that the canyonfire is basically an 8mm rope with added armour. This is probably what will sway me - that and having used one before. Zion sandstone would seem to make a thinner sheath false economy.

[reflection]

As to "8" lines, I'd go with the (updated) 8.3 Canyon Fire over the Imlay 8 and over any of the $$$ 8 BW Canyon Pro lines. You might also think about getting a "9" rope (for your quiver), particularly if single stranding longer raps. A "lighter" option is the BW Canyon DS 9, which acutally feels and weighs in like an 8.5 rope; or go with Imlay or Sterling 9 static lines which are bulkier and heavier. Depending on your group size and canyon destination, a mix of 200 (8&9); a 125-130 (8or9); and a 50mtr or 60mtr 6 pull cord, will get you through almost all (Zion)situations. What folk actually use though, is all over the map. Personally I've developed a strong distrust for many/most 8 BW static canyon lines, particularly if rapped single strand. (So far though, the 8.3 canyon fire still gets a thumbs up) Use those 8 BW lines with heavy partners or in wet canyons and the sheath, in the middle or end, may/will give out and slide. Luck with ropes, just like with partners, can be an up or down venture.

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks, that gives me much to think about. Am still mostly drawn to the Canyonfire 8.3mm - it was nicer to single strand rap on than the 9mm mammut caving rope I had.

Re pull cord - does anyone here use 5mm accessory cord for this, or is 6 considered the bare minimum?

[Brian in SLC]

Re pull cord - does anyone here use 5mm accessory cord for this, or is 6 considered the bare minimum?

I find 6mm is about the minimum for me. I might consider some of that high strength 5.5 stuff, maybe...

I find some 6mm is hard to pull. Standard nylon 5mm accessory cord starts out at around 1300lbf. Add some wear and tear, then a knot, and, I can imagine a couple of canyoneers tuggin' on it might be enough to bust it.

Probably wouldn't consider a pull cord that I wouldn't rappel on in a pinch. I've rappelled on a 6mm cord a fair bit. I don't think I'd care to step 'er down to 5mm.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[sarahlizzy]

I find 6mm is about the minimum for me. I might consider some of that high strength 5.5 stuff, maybe...

I find some 6mm is hard to pull. Standard nylon 5mm accessory cord starts out at around 1300lbf. Add some wear and tear, then a knot, and, I can imagine a couple of canyoneers tuggin' on it might be enough to bust it.

Thanks Brian!

The reason I ask is because I have 40 metres of Beal 5mm accessory cord. I figure it would make a nice pull cord for raps like Mystery Spring, Mytery Falls and that fun one at the end of Pine Creek. It's rated to 580kg minimum breaking load, so what, half once it's tied to the rope with an EDK? That's still approaching 3kN needed to break it, and I'm not sure my friends and I *could* pull with that much force (there will only be a few of us, and it would take four or five of us hanging our entire weight on the cord to apply that much static load), and if it came to that, I figure the rope would be stuck and a lost cause anyway.

Am I way off base here? I wouldn't dream of trying to rap on this stuff (unless, I guess, the alternative was to be eaten by a lost polar bear or something, and surviving with broken legs was preferable).

[Brian in SLC]

[The reason I ask is because I have 40 metres of Beal 5mm accessory cord.

I find 5mm fairly hard to pull due to its small diameter. Bites the hand that feeds it, I suppose. Especially if you have to use it full length, and the pull isn't optimal to begin with.

Also, hard to put an ascender (mechanical or nylon) onto it, if need be. Some folks pull a thin cord with an ascender. Not sure if you could get a wild country ropeman to even bite into a 5mm cord.

Easy to damage ropes in these canyons. You pull that edk knot even a few times over much surface, and you'll damage that cord. Since there's not much of it to begin with, any damage will be a large effect on its strength. So, that 5 or 600 pounds of force that it would take to bust it really goes down fast with a bit of damage.

And...sooner or later, you are pulling that rope down, and....the end will be off the ground but you'll still have that pull cord. What if the rope/knot hangs up on something? Options are pretty limited at that point. I guess they would be no matter the diameter of pull cord, but, at least with a thicker one, if you had to ascend or send someone up a ways to free a stuck knot, you have a bit more margin.

For Pine Creek and/or Mystery, I'd probably suggest to get a 60m main canyon rope. That takes care of Pine Creek as that last drop works for a 60m rope doubled. Then add a 100 foot (30m) of another "work" type rope for short rappels. Gives you a bunch of options.

You could still take the small pull cord for a back up or to tie into the other ropes to pull down a 30m+ rappel.

Sooner or later, instead of being stuck in a canyon waiting for the calvary to come, you'll probably have to use that pull cord for a rappel. Nice to know its "doable". I wouldn't care to have the 5mm as an option.

Folks tend to dance with them who brung 'em. That why I don't carry a piece of gear that only works in a limited capacity, if avoidable. Like those fake carabiners for keys and/or water bottles. Just use a light weight full strength one, and, you'll never have to decide to use the fake one should the need arise. Same thing with pull cords. If I run out of rappel slings, I'll cut that rap cord up for anchors. Voila. I'd hate to rappel off even a 5mm anchor cord. Just too small. If you don't have it with you, then, that's not an option.

Edit to add: If you're bent on rappelling single strand, then, my bet is you have a much higher chance of damaging your main rappel rope. Which would you rather rappel on? A fresh, undamaged 6mm pull cord, or, an 8mm rappel line with a deep core shot? Not sure I'd care to take my chances on the core shot rope. 5mm would be a non-desirable option!

Anyhoo, that's my thoughts.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[reflection]

Pull Cords: There are "some" canyons, where for safety, efficiency or simple back up we always take a pull cord. Long ago we used lite weight ACCESORY CORD 4-5-(6)m lines. The cord cord was difficult to hang on to and it would stretch badly; and it was not something we would ever dare rap on. 4-5 years ago I/we re-loaded. Esprit makes a 6m "rope" that is stiff, lite and has a poly sheath. Tom (Imlay) also sells a 6m poly sheath/core line (made by?) that also works well. In a pinch/emergency - if rigged properly- once could rap on either of these lines. And they could be cut and used as an anchor. (Otherwise I agree with BC's comments above.) Accessory cord: I NEVER use it to rap on, as a pull cord, and (try not to use as) an anchor. Yes though, to use as a cinch knot - prussic/french prussic (auto-block), or to (threaten to) hang a delusional diabolical partner with.

[Brian in SLC]

Esprit makes a 6m "rope" that is stiff, lite and has a poly sheath. Tom (Imlay) also sells a 6m poly sheath/core line (made by?) that also works well. In a pinch/emergency - if rigged properly- once could rap on either of these lines.

Had a Esprit 6mm "personal alpine escape rope" (or some such). Was great. Had their "bone dry" treatment on it. Not great hand (very stiff, like cable), but, wore like iron. Was hard to pull as the sheath was really "bitey" (ie, if it slipped in your hand it'd take a chunk out). Tough rope. Got a ton of use out of it, and, was bummed when it got chopped in a rock fall deal.

Esprit doesn't really advertise that rope. Interesting. Still available?

Now have a nice Kevlar 6mm that has sweet hand.

I agree that accessory cord doesn't make for good pull cords if you ever have to rappel it. I've had good luck with 7mm cord, but, not great luck with some 8mm (that aweful BD trail line made by Beal...ugh!).

Wonder how that Mammut cord would work...I use it for Prusik's (etc). Seems pretty burly. Wonder how it would rappel...

Tom's Imlay 6mm looks nice, but, didn't it recently change to some other material? Tom, what say ye, will the new pull cord still be sorta useable for the occasional rappel (of the record, of course) or will this now be a bad idear based on the new material in the pull cord?

Good thoughts...

-Brian in SLC

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks guys. You've pretty much convinced me that I should probably think about using this 5mm cord to make prusik loops, slings and the like, rather than a pull cord.

My thoughts on rope lengths are this - thinking particularly about canyons like Msyery and Pine Creek with raps to 120 feet. Last year our group had the following ropes available to us:

1 * 100 feet
1 * 200 feet
2 * 120 feet

Our experience was overwhelmingly that the 120 feet ropes were the most useful, at least in Mystery and Pine Creek. The 100 feet rope was just too short to be genuinely useful, and the 200 feet rope was mostly annoying deadweight which was awkward to deploy and recoil afterwards (it didn't fit in our rope silos). In addition, of the 3 longest raps - Mystery Spring, Mystery Falls and Pine Creek, Mystery Falls was the only one on which we even deployed the 200 foot rope, and even that was used single strand with one of the 120s as a pull cord. 80 feet of that rope was simply pointless extra weight which I had to carry, hindered its deployment and which prevented it going in my rope silo.

So this year my plan for these canyons is to take 2*120 feet ropes and 120 feet of pull cord into the canyons. This would in theory give us a spare rope in case one got stuck, and still leave the ability to pull the spare, and if we wanted we could even double strand the longest raps in those canyons by tying the 120s together (although I can't honestly see us wanting to do that).

I'm still attracted to this scheme - both ropes should stack neatly in rope silos, as should the pull cord which will make rope management vastly more pleasant than it was when we were in Zion last year. I think Brian and Reflection have convinced me that I should be looking at a more substantial pull cord though - at least 6mm, and possibly even a third rope.

Thanks for your insight, guys!

[sarahlizzy]

Tom, what say ye, will the new pull cord still be sorta useable for the occasional rappel (of the record, of course)

Off the record...

[ratagonia]

Tom's Imlay 6mm looks nice, but, didn't it recently change to some other material? Tom, what say ye, will the new pull cord still be sorta useable for the occasional rappel (of the record, of course) or will this now be a bad idear based on the new material in the pull cord?

Good thoughts...

-Brian in SLC

No changes = 100% static, polyester core and sheath, about 6.2mm, Tibloc works on it with an Attache; and Brian can rap on it (doubled or quadrupled) but no one else PLEASE!!!

The difficulty with rapping on a tiny cord like that is that it can cut rather easily (well, plus, requires quite a bit of effort to get enough friction). If you rap past a sharp edge, then shift sideways underneath, you could cut ANY rope, but a small rope like a 6mm leaves very little margin.

Tom