Black Hole Hypothermia Incident

[Iceaxe]

OK... I've watched this thread grow to six pages and pretty much been biting my tongue.... and the reason I've done that is I I know it will probably be my ass in the sling next week.... but.... after reading this Black Hole epic from the comfort of my Lazyboy... here is how it's sounding to me.....

The Black Hole "non fiasco" scares the snot outta me.... I see nothing but problems.... I see peer pressure to do the Hole the night before, poor planning, borrowed gear, untested gear, breakdown in leadership, poor decision making, inappropriate group size, lack of knowledge in partners skills, yada, yada....

To try and blow this off as "everyone needs to be responsible for themselves" is a disservice..... in many ways the group got lucky that things turned out well....

Anyhoo.... I wasn't there, I don't know.... it's just the impression I get from reading the posts.....

[CarpeyBiggs]

Maybe you should start paying more attention....

really shane? like this one for chambers?

Chambers requires complete technical gear. There are no mandatory rappels in this canyon but a 30-foot rope for belays, handlines and pack lowering is highly advised. Additional gear should consist of a mae west bunny strap, several shoulder length slings, a couple double length slings, 50 feet of webbing, several rapid links, and a prusik system. As small of pack as possible is highly advised. In normal conditions this canyon will require minor waist to chest deep wading. Wetsuits are not required in normal warm weather conditions.

hmm... doesn't sound very canyon specific to me. 50 feet of webbing? Several rapid links? Rope? Complete technical gear? Carrying that stuff through the upper section of chambers would be a nightmare.

I guess we can excuse you though, because you've never actually been in Chambers, so it's hard to write canyon specific details for that one.

The canyon specific gear (for any route) is what I suggest, you are welcome to disagree.

But with regards to Chambers... yeah... a 30' rope and a little webbing is going to cause major problems.

So Dan... any more of your usual cheap ass shots you want to take at me today?

touchy touchy today, eh? you deliver cheap ass shots ad nauseum, but can't handle a little prodding? i sorry baby. me love you long time.

but yes, complete technical gear in that canyon is a pain in the ass. you don't need a rap device, harness, prussiks, ropes, webbing, rapides, or anything else besides some water and food. your description is GENERIC. that's the whole point. but, like i said, you haven't been there, so it's hard for you to know that. your description, if truly specific should read "this canyon is super skinny. take as little gear as possible, probably just food and water. leave a contingency plan lowered into the chamber by a 100 foot rope if you want to be cautious."

i kind of got off topic, but this is a good example of being "pack-appropriate" in a canyon. do you recall the folks who had to bivy overnight in chambers? they were exhausted, and their pack actually had to be left behind because they couldn't get it through. i can't say how much the pack contributed to their bivy, but you can draw your own conclusions as to how difficult carrying extra weight is in a super skinny stemming canyon (like chambers).

[ratagonia]

I don't pay much attention to Shane's gear recommendations because he is not usually specific to the canyon - he has a general "complete technical gear list" that ends up on most of his beta sheets.

Maybe you should start paying more attention.... because the gear recommendation's listed in the actual route description are canyon specific. I tell you exactly how much rope you will need, how much webbing, how many slings, if and what type of wetsuit you will need, what size pack you should bring, yada, yada..... if any specialized gear (cheater stick, throw bag, or cam) is required it is also listed.... Yes, I have a general gear page but the gear listed in the route description is canyon specific.

Admittedly, I also don't pay attention to Shane's gear recommendations because they don't interest me. From the description and the length of the longest rappel I can figure what *I* want to carry for the canyon.

So, Shane - what are the several over-the-shoulder slings and two double-length slings for?

Tom

ps. 3 or 4 trips through Chambers, I have never seen water in it. Bruce just got unlucky, I guess. That little wide part just before the hard climb up could hold water, and it would be JUST the wrong place.

[CarpeyBiggs]

OK... I've watched this thread grow to six pages and pretty much been biting my tongue.... and the reason I've done that is I I know it will probably be my ass in the sling next week.... but.... after reading this Black Hole epic from the comfort of my Lazyboy... here is how it's sounding to me.....

The Black Hole "non fiasco" scares the snot outta me.... I see nothing but problems.... I see peer pressure to do the Hole the night before, poor planning, borrowed gear, untested gear, breakdown in leadership, poor decision making, inappropriate group size, lack of knowledge in partners skills, yada, yada....

To try and blow this off as "everyone needs to be responsible for themselves" is a disservice..... in many ways the group got lucky that things turned out well....

Anyhoo.... I wasn't there, I don't know.... it's just the impression I get from reading the posts.....

the reason you feel this way is because you weren't there. and, because Tom and Ram believe in providing a helpful dialog for the community, at the expense of their own reputation.

bottom line? black hole in january is difficult. we could've done some things better, BUT, we did have the appropriate contingencies in place to descend the canyon safely THIS time.

really, there was no fiasco. there was 20 minutes or so of warming someone who was underprepared. everything else played beautifully. in fact, we finished the canyon in the same time this year as most other years, despite the bigger group and much more difficult conditions. we had a couple hours of daylight left. the exit had fixed ropes. we sent scout parties ahead to ensure passage in the committing spots.

some people had bad gear. but considering the MASSIVE amount of people who were in attendance, that didn't go, i'd say the leadership was still pretty good, and the expectations of the canyon were pretty well explained. Ram and Tom will accept the blame, but that's just because it's their event. ultimately, they provided more than enough leadership. jason and nate just made a bad decision. but guess what, because of the leadership that had already been displayed, the group rallied and took care of it, and the canyon was finished safely.

you also don't know nate and jason. they are tough guys. way tougher than most, and so if they say they are adequately prepared, there is some element of trusting that they are. these guys would run canyon circles around many of us, certainly around me.

that said, there was A TON of dialog on what it takes to get through the black hole safely. it's a very well known quantity in most respects. folks have done it 8 years in a row now. there isn't really much reason for folks to not be prepared, if they wanted to be.

jason and nate were not peer pressured into anything. they came on their own accord. heck, most of us didn't even realize they were coming until they rallied for some extra neoprene. they made their own decision.

[Iceaxe]

WOW... so you guys really didn't make any mistakes.... I'm thrilled to hear that....

[CarpeyBiggs]

Split off from Larry Canyon Debrief discussion.

[CarpeyBiggs]

WOW... so you guys really didn't make any mistakes.... I'm thrilled to hear that....

Nobody said we didn't make mistakes. In fact, we made many mistakes. There is a whole mile of posts on canyons group detailing such.

You, however, said you saw "nothing but problems." The reality is, you are doing a classic Shane misdirection. You know you got called out on your generic descriptions on routes you've never done, so now you are doing a "i know you are but what am i" type dialog.

But if you'd like to discuss specifics of the black hole, i encourage you to engage the current discussion over at canyons. or, if that doesn't interest you, feel free to mention some specific problems you saw with the black hole descent, and i'll do my best to constructively analyze them, though many of the other participants probably won't chime in on this forum.

[Spidey]

Everyone in the BH was perfectly safe. Lest you forget the Mapleton crew came in late and played sweeper. We would have carried everyone out.

[Iceaxe]

Admittedly, I also don't pay attention to Shane's gear recommendations because they don't interest me. From the description and the length of the longest rappel I can figure what *I* want to carry for the canyon.

I can totally agree with that.... but you are also a highly experienced canyoneer and I don't write just for you, for better or worse, my route descriptions have to cover a much wider skill range.

So, Shane - what are the several over-the-shoulder slings and two double-length slings for?

Probably just a personal thing.... I always carry at lease one double sling, one standard sling, 60' of webbing and a biner no matter what I do in the outdoors, even when hiking local trails in the Wasatch. With those items I can preform amazing feasts of mountaineering skill, as can many others..... and all that gear, combined with my possibles bag, lunch, water and a wind proof jacket will easily fit in a small fanny pack with room left over for my camera.....

YMMV

[Iceaxe]

feel free to mention some specific problems you saw with the black hole descent, and i'll do my best to constructively analyze them

I did mention the specific problems I noticed.... you must have missed them... I saw peer pressure to do the Hole, poor planning, borrowed gear, untested gear, breakdown in leadership, poor decision making, inappropriate group size, lack of knowledge in partners skills.

You, however, said you saw "nothing but problems."

Actually what that means is.... if you look at the problem you can see when the snow ball started rolling and all the little things that allowed it to keep growing and pick up speed.... See the answer above if you need an explanation of what I'm talking about...

jason and nate were not peer pressured into anything.

So no one sat around the fire the night before talking about what a great time the Black Hole was going to be on New Years? No one mentioned they should tag along because it was going to be fun? No one talked about what a great time years gone by were? Dude... That is peer pressure.... I'm sure you get the drift.... smoking makes you look cool, chicks dig it.... peer pressure is not stuffing a cigarette in someone's mouth or physically dragging them through the Black Hole.


And.... I do understand that there were plenty of skilled people around and the problem was handled quickly and effectively.... my concern is why was there a problem to begin with? Why did the snowball start rolling and why didn't anyone stop it?

From the canyoneer's point of view (SAR excluded).... I honestly think there is more to be learned from this little mishap than there is to be learned from the Larry Canyon deal.....

[CarpeyBiggs]

here is the first post of many posts made by 13 different folks who were actually in attendance new year's day. lots of issues discussed in detail, by adults, going over the good, the bad and the ugly of a successful day that had some moments, brought out for review by those involved for all to learn from. many of which have detailed the very things you have "concerns" about.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/54975

for those playing along at home, this is where shane is regurgitating his "concerns." his concerns are really the concerns of those who were actually there, he is simply reposting. you can draw your own conclusions.

bottom line is this: you started blasting on this trip when you got called out on your generic gear lists and the fact you publish canyons you've never done. attack and deflect. it's a transparent and standard operating procedure of "iceaxe." but i'll play along, because let's be honest, i'm bored, and you make a fun target...

I did mention the specific problems I noticed.... you must have missed them... I saw peer pressure to do the Hole, poor planning, borrowed gear, untested gear, breakdown in leadership, poor decision making, inappropriate group size, lack of knowledge in partners skills.

so what you mean to say is that you are mentioning here a bunch of potential issues that we (meaning those of us who were actually there) have already mentioned and detailed? nice work detective! and nicely exaggerated too.

my point is this, from your perspective, i can understand why you think these things wouldn't work. because you weren't there. you never are. you have little basis for comparison. but let's be honest, your post really has nothing to do with the black hole trip. there are 13 firsthand accounts from the day already posted.

that said, i'm hesitant to engage you too much on most of this stuff, because i'll be giving you exactly what you want. and that is an armchair to quarterback from, and a platform from which you can "play the expert" (haha) without really playing...

so that said... here we go.

if you look at the problem you can see when the snow ball started rolling and all the little things that allowed it to keep growing and pick up speed.... See the answer above if you need an explanation of what I'm talking about...

The snowball? That picked up speed and became a slightly larger snowball? Before the snowball was effectively crushed and became a non-issue? Yeah, that thing REALLY got out of hand. The point is, it COULD HAVE been really bad. It wasn't. It was dealt with. The only snowball you would have seen is all the amazing photos of the hole in it's winter wonderland state.

jason and nate were not peer pressured into anything.

So no one sat around the fire the night before talking about what a great time the Black Hole was going to be on New Years? No one mentioned they should tag along because it was going to be fun? No one talked about what a great time years gone by were?

hahaha. oh man, i really wish you'd show up to one of these some time so you had some kind of idea how this trip operated. you act like it was a bunch of high school kids sitting around daring each other to squeeze the trigger on a loaded handgun...

(which makes me wonder, what leads you to think there was peer pressure? you "saw" it? you must have vivid dreams...)

in actuality, your ludicrous assumption is false, there was relatively little peer pressure. in fact, most of the discussion focused on people NOT doing the canyon. many people stayed behind after hearing what the situation would be. for the first time, not a single woman went through the black hole. people devised backup plans. plenty of other options played that day.

come to think of it, that was one of the big regrets from the night before, is that we DIDN'T spend time talking about the black hole. we were too busy getting drunk, wrestling, stealing cars, tackling each other, and otherwise having a good new year's time. i'm not even sure Jason and Nate were around that night until later? i think they were partying with their friends camped down at 3 forks. i could be wrong though. truth be told, my memories are slightly hazy from that night...

another list of stuff that is really all just one point

you've demonstrated nicely you can fabricate the events you'd like to imagine happened, so there's no point debating the rest of this stuff. 13 firsthand accounts to look at. what could you possibly have to offer? ultimately, i think we are into a debate on style now. It's an advanced canyoneering experience with a degree of risk. we know you made the decision years ago not to participate in these kinds of experiences. so it's difficult for you to offer much in the way of constructive criticism. you're missing out. but hey, nothing but love for ya!

From the canyoneer's point of view (SAR excluded).... I honestly think there is more to be learned from this little mishap than there is to be learned from the Larry Canyon deal.....

yep. lots to learn. that's why folks have been so forthright. shit can happen. gotta learn to "fend for yourself..."

[forum8fox]

Not to take sides as I think the bickering is childish like some high school click kinda thing that's blown up out of hand into adulthood....

But yea we were there at camp all night (we never left actually, we more so left after the hole incident which might have stemmed from some embarassment), witnessed the tackle, witnessed the ambush recon, witnessed the car theft and re-enactment of the night before...(still laughing just thinking about it really)

Blame has been given and taken as it was due, hell some folks even called themselves out. I think just about every lesson to be learn from this incident has been. So to further prod at peoples integrity or lack there of as you may see it, is to me like kicking a dead horse because it's fun. I don't condone this no matter who is running their mouth, it's not fair.

A couple thoughts, can't we all just get along? Also you guys ever heard the saying if you don't have anything good to say don't say anything at all?
Or how about treat people the way you want to be treated???

Obviously as I'm sure you should all know that the part of the post stated above, did not just stem from this thread but from what I've seen in general in numerous posts between "certian" parties.

If we're going to pretend were adults suggesting how important it is to detail events and take responsability for ourselves. Then maybe we should act like them and treat each other like decent human beings too!?!?!





Carry On! (that is if there is actually a productive reason to do so)

[ratagonia]

Carry On! (that is if there is actually a productive reason to do so)

oooooo. Zing!

T