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Thread: Rah! Rah! yahoo

  1. #41
    Occasionally these turf wars arise and we have to go over the us and them garbage. The difference I see with Bogley is that we like to have fun. I enjoy logging on, kicking my shoes off, and socializing. I don't personally jump on here to debate or sit in a lecture. If I wanted that I would head back to the University or chat with my grandpa. There is certainly great discussion on Bogley and we all learn from each other. If fun isn't in your vernacular then you might not always enjoy the banter that takes place on Bogley. That's really too bad because many enjoy the character (or characters) on Bogley and I often have a smile on my face when I visit Bogley. I think its just more serious on the Yahoo Groups. To each his own.

    It all boils down to this concept for me. If the experts care about the long term health, stability and good name of their sport then they participate on sites like Bogley and others. The sport will evolve and carry on WITH or WITHOUT them. The people who care about the sport will teach others. This includes hanging out on Bogley and other sites where "noobs" hang out. However "noobs" hang everywhere, including the Yahoo Groups. The people who care about themselves only and not the sport will continue to ridicule the "noobs" and keep all the secrets to themselves. Now there are MANY experts that do hang out on Bogley and pass along the trade to the next generation. Sometimes their tactics rub people wrong, but many times their expertise is passed along for the next generation to learn from.

    Again, the sport will carry on with or without the experts. Those that care about the sport that they love will teach the apprentices, who will carry on the legacy of the great sport of Canyoneering.


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  3. #42
    I do not believe that there is a movement to "change Bogley" or "pit one group against the other". I see no "turf war". I see a request for an occasional place to meet and have a serious discussion.

    Why can't there be a serious discussion once and awhile? What if I don't want to PLAY ALL the time?

    If the thread was clearly titled ie: Learning Opportunity would the rest of the group give some respect to those that want to participate without all the derailing?

    Tanya is correct, if you do not want a serious discussion, don't read that thread.......





    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    2. People who participate on Bogley but not on Canyons are an important constituency for the kind of information a good debrief would generate. Less politely, the technical level at Bogley in general is not as high as the technical level at Canyons Group, and Bogleyites are more likely to repeat the same mistakes unless they are made extremely clear. Canyons Group certainly includes a wide range of abilities, and Bogley certainly has the advantage that people with little technical knowledge or canyon experience have no compunctions about posting and sharing their opinions. (see the next point).

    3. To me, one of the factors that needs to be discussed is what I call "the Bogley attitude", by which I mean the attitude that this stuff is not really all that technical, so there is not that much to know. My comments in an effective debrief would take aim squarely at this attitude, and would hopefully penetrate some of the hard-headed, anti-technicality of the Bogley environment.

  4. #43
    Question:

    Does anyone want to occasionally have a serious discussion?



  5. #44
    ..........

  6. #45
    Bogley BigShot
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    Canyons: Also RAM is a wonderful moderator. If you don't reply to something you should, he will email you and beyond that he will also communicate with you off the group and encourage you to do things in person. The man cares about his group likes it's his baby. He pets those old experts, which takes time, patience and skill and encourages the new guys.

    This is not saying those at Bogley (I am one of them) are not good, its just saying RAM is exceptional at this and its personal with him.

    ACA: Rich is not so good at this, but he has other talents.

    Bogley: Shane we either love him or hate him, but either way he entertains us.

  7. #46
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech
    If the complaint is that we don't cater only to the experts, don't expect that to change. If the high society wants to keep in their shitty Yahoo format and stay away from the commoners, let 'em.

    The Yahoo Group member is the type of person that prints out their emails and stacks the paper on their desk, then deletes the email. They say "it's easier to find this way". They want to show more than 5 pictures to a friend, so they burn it to a CD and mail it to them. They don't agree with all of these fancy schmancy photo hosting services. And then they ask for the CD back in a month so they can mail it to somebody else.

    These are the same people who forward you that email saying something will pop up on your screen after you forward that to 11 other people.

    You know all of those funny email video clips you've sent them? Yeah, they've burned them to a CD just in case this whole internet thing is a fad.

    The Yahoo Groups is just one step ahead of being Pen Pals to a group of people. When emoticons came along, it blew their freakin' minds.

    So, why "all of the experts are on Yahoo Groups" is beyond me. If they're just trying to stay in a civilized place where they can talk about the correct color of helmet in the month of August, then I would call that...... sheltered.
    Thanks, Beech. Made my point exactly.

    And don't show those old pictures of Shane - we're all happy that he changed his life around!

    Tom

  8. #47
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    This has been interesting. I am a silent follower of the yahoo site. Hard to follow the format and if your not in the loop your an outsider? Everyone keeps stating that the yahoo site has a higher degree of technical posts? I agree there are probably more people on yahoo with vast technical experience but where are all these technical posts? I am probably wrong but I cannot think of a discussion on yahoo about how to handle ? The feeling I get on yahoo is most everyone already knows how to handle every imaginable problem that could occur so they just don't discuss it? The ACA site use to be a great place to go for technical questions but there does not seem to be many posting there anymore.

    I can't decide after reading this thread if I have been doing a disservice by trying to get noob type technical discussions going because I haven't done xyz x rated canyon? If this is the feeling out there and I am putting people at risk by putting ideas in their heads please let me know and I will gladly stop and just follow along?

    Mark
    Both groups have their strengths and their weaknesses. Ram and I discuss "why noobs don't post on Canyons" and "How can we get something interesting going". I know he has asked you to post (noob) questions over there. It CAN be dead dead dead over there.

    I like that there is more friendly banter over here, excepting SOBs like Sombeech. Or maybe I should say, when it is friendly. I like that people ask noob questions. Part of the problem HERE is that when Mark asks a noob question, a whole bunch of noobs respond with lame answers, and then the thread gets drawn away from usefulness and into things like what Tanya can do with 3' of duct tape and a silk rope (it was silk, wasn't it Tanya? Red silk if my memory serves, still left a mark...). Yes, it is great to have a place where lots of people participate, but in general, the technical level over here is quite low (is it not?).

    Canyons group - dull dull dull. Dominated by a few players who have high technical skills (assuming you label the skills Ram has a 'high technical skills', which they are not traditionally); but very little technical discussion and the noobs are intimidated into silence mostly.

    Bogley group - fun fun fun. Dominated by a few players who love yakking it up, but for the most part lack any technical depth; so its easy to get a discussion going here, just difficult to learn anything worthwhile over here.

    Vive la difference! For better or worse I play in both sandboxes, and spend a lot of time cringing over here!

    T

  9. #48
    If you guys want a thread about technique, post it in the title or beginning description - which is already being done, so there should be no problem. If you want it to stay serious, do the same.

    This will fend off the casual forum posters, and attract the serious ones who have something to contribute to your thread.

    Almost everybody would respect this, and again, feel free to ask the moderators to clean it up if they don't.

    If you want to open up a debate/politics/argument thread, don't expect it to stay on track. I fully support serious discussion, you just have to start it off right, don't try to make it serious on the 3rd page.

    The control is in your hands.

  10. #49
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech
    If you guys want a thread about technique, post it in the title or beginning description - which is already being done, so there should be no problem. If you want it to stay serious, do the same.

    This will fend off the casual forum posters, and attract the serious ones who have something to contribute to your thread.

    Almost everybody would respect this, and again, feel free to ask the moderators to clean it up if they don't.

    If you want to open up a debate/politics/argument thread, don't expect it to stay on track. I fully support serious discussion, you just have to start it off right, don't try to make it serious on the 3rd page.

    The control is in your hands.
    Thank you.

    Tom

  11. #50
    If the powers to be of this site do not see the power of some of the seasoned players over at canyon. Go back and read thru the moab bogley posts when Ram offered to meet some of us in the furnace the day before. We were jumping over ourselves to be able to tag along. When the fest started several in the groups that I lead expressed how they tried every way possible to change their schedules to of been able to make that day.

    Mark

  12. #51
    Interesting to compare the two sites, or, three if you include the now fairly dead ACA forum (I can't access, not a dues paying member, which is kind of a bummer but not worth ponying up for dues).

    Some random thoughts.

    "Control" over content has always been an issue/problem. I think the yahoo egroup does some moderation of so called "trouble makers" which can change the tone for some folks. Its fairly rare on Bogley to see someone have to actually delete content. I like that the admins will carve off threads. But, they can't do that on the egroup. That almost forces restraint and maybe some moderation. The format makes it hard.

    Hank probably nailed it. The three letter word. E to the G to the O.

    Yeah, we all got 'em. Some more fragile than others. Some larger than others.

    More technical expertise on canyons egroup? No way. Scroll down through the content on this site. You don't get too far when you hit Rich Carlson getting educated by Bo Beck. You see that on canyons? Maybe in the past, but, there hasn't been a decent technical discussion on that site in maybe years.

    I think one of the differences here is you get a very wide mix of abilities and backgrounds, some so-called "newbs" and some fairly seasoned folks. On canyons, the posters are fairly static. There hasn't been much recharge of new folks. Was a bit in the past, and, because of the kinda stoic nature of the responses, folks asking the same ol' questions (what rope to get, etc), it got fairly mundane. The more lively content here makes it a bit more exciting, and, for better or worse, it ends up being also entertaining. And, frankly, fun.

    There's a ton of the pot calling the kettle black here. Scroll down, you don't go too far before you see folks taking potshots on this thread at each other to getting along just fine and complementing each other.

    So, why the rancor? Interesting to think about. I add to it from time to time. But, I'll have to say as far as Bogley is concerned, I really don't get into here with folks as much. Maybe folks, due to the kinda wild west-eque content here, have thicker skin? Maybe I've posted for a much longer time "over there" and I only pop in to cause trouble, uhh, I mean to lend my opinion.

    Like it or not, this is kinda the place. I like it. Neat that folks can imbed pictures, link to website, video, etc. It's a "modern" website. The egroup thing really has gone the way of the dodo. Its amazing that the canyons egroup is still plugging along. Most egroups probably aren't. Anymore, I think the egroup thing is mostly for closed conversation between folks, which, is how the group has kind of devolved.

    Maybe there's less respect here. Maybe respect is earned. Maybe being more tolerant of other folks' opinions would be better. There isn't just ONE WAY to do some stuff. And, debating (sometimes endlessly!) some techniques and styles ad naseum can be entertaining for some, educational for others, but, the free flow of information is a good thing. Also seems to degrade into unpleasantness. Folks will make up their own minds, and, not be forced to do something a certain way. And, some people will get the occasional painful reminder of that.

    There's a ton of technical horsepower here. I'd argue much more than on the egroup. I wish Dean, Kip, Matt, Dave etc were here. Not sure why they aren't. Maybe just too much effort. But, my bet is folks who consider themselves the "gurus" of the sport spend WAY more time looking at content on this site, rather than the egroup. You know who you are....ha ha.

    The better trip reports are here. Accidents are reported here. Newsworthy canyoneering info is here. How often does one site reference a conversation of the other? I've never got an email to cross post something I've posted on the egroup to Bogley. I've got a ton the other way. That's telling. And, for better or worse, the site has entertainment value (and if you're bored, you could always surf another forum!).

    I really think the egroup will go the way of rec.climbing. The hotspots on the 'net evolve and either folks evolve with them, or, they don't. Kind of an interesting study.

    Anyhoo, enough spray. Always good to stay tuned!

    Cheers,

    -Brian in SLC

  13. #52
    Bogley BigShot
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    I know they are been very few times I would read such a long post ... but I do LOVE Brian's WIT.


  14. #53
    well I got through 1.5 pages of pissing contest and got to bored with it to read the rest. Should there be a new topic for us to post in or should I just post it here, 4 pages in?

    I can post some stuff that we have talked about but I am sure my dad will post once he gets sobered up enough to post. He just got done with surgery on his knee.

    Jaxx
    Bogley noob
    The man thong is wrong.

  15. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia

    The rules (at the moment) are: the ball is in the principles's court to shoot next - first to provide information in response to the questions, then to provide a self-critique before everyone else (for instance, Scott Card) jumps all over their case.

    Those guys have done an excellent job of communicating and laying it all out to date - the best I ever have seen! I hope they will continue to play (though they may get weary of the whole thing); but at the moment we are in a waiting pattern. I hope people will respect that and give it space.

    Tom
    Sorry it is long. What did you expect? Wow, I gotta pay attention. I sort of ignored this thread because of the spitting match that I figured would happen, and it did. Then, old Tom calls me out for like the third time for jumping the gun on the "debriefing" threads and then has the audacity to say I was "jumping all over their case"? Uh, no. Call me out, fine. But please don
    Life is Good

  16. #55
    OK.... here is my 2 cents.....

    What I see mostly in this thread is arguing over how to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic....

    For those that haven't figured it out yet here is the deal... Yahoo is not putting any money or resources into the Yahoo Groups. Yahoo is letting the groups die as they have done with other unprofitable areas of their empire. The Canyon group is one of the few Yahoo groups that is still healthy... and that is largely a result of the outstanding effort and time Ram puts into keeping it on life support....

    The way I see it.... eventually the Yahoo gang will be looking for a new home.... I hope that the majority of them will feel welcome at Bogley. Bogley (as with all forums) takes on the character of those who post.... The inmates run the asylum.... err... something like that....

    So.... instead of arguing over who has the bigger daddy parts.... now might be a good time to unite a large portion of the canyon community under one umbrella...... With Yahoo killing off its groups and the ACA closing shop (at least to non-members) its a point in time offering opportunity....

    Anyhoo..... food for thought.....


  17. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe
    instead of arguing over who has the bigger daddy parts.... now might be a good time to unite a large portion of the canyon community under one umbrella...... With Yahoo killing off its groups and the ACA closing shop (at least to non-members) its a point in time offering opportunity....
    I don't think there is any arguing, though I do agree with you. Would be nice to have one active group, instead of two.

    The problem is trust. And we know that a handful of the active posters over there don't trust you, based on your history on the yahoo group. They don't wanna deal with the shane-drama. How would one have a guarantee that you wouldn't act like you have in the past?

    That said, you have been behaving very nicely the last year or so. What happened to drama-shane?


  18. #57
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe
    OK.... here is my 2 cents.....

    What I see mostly in this thread is arguing over how to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic....

    For those that haven't figured it out yet here is the deal... Yahoo is not putting any money or resources into the Yahoo Groups. Yahoo is letting the groups die as they have done with other unprofitable areas of their empire. The Canyon group is one of the few Yahoo groups that is still healthy... and that is largely a result of the outstanding effort and time Ram puts into keeping it on life support....

    The way I see it.... eventually the Yahoo gang will be looking for a new home.... I hope that the majority of them will feel welcome at Bogley. Bogley (as with all forums) takes on the character of those who post.... The inmates run the asylum.... err... something like that....

    So.... instead of arguing over who has the bigger daddy parts.... now might be a good time to unite a large portion of the canyon community under one umbrella...... With Yahoo killing off its groups and the ACA closing shop (at least to non-members) its a point in time offering opportunity....

    Anyhoo..... food for thought.....

    Yah, kinda. But...

    First rule of system engineering: always have at least two ways of doing everything!

    One reason it is hard to get 100% market share - people have different tastes. Some people cannot stand Bogley, some people never will stand Bogley. Bogley has a strong flavor, which will rub some people the wrong way.

    One 'reason' to keep the Yahoo group on Yahoo is that, in theory, it is an easy place for people to find. Hmmm, then again, I think that theory might have been true 5 years ago, but has less truthiness today.

    Might see some changes there in the future...

    Tom

  19. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs
    The problem is trust. And we know that a handful of the active posters over there don't trust you, based on your history on the yahoo group. They don't wanna deal with the shane-drama. How would one have a guarantee that you wouldn't act like you have in the past?
    It would take a lot of give and take on both sides to make it happen

  20. #59
    Bogley's format is being discussed on the yahoo site. A question came up that I have wondered also. On the ACA site when you receive an email alert you can scan down and read the message. Is this possible on bogley?

    Mark

  21. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by moab mark
    Bogley's format is being discussed on the yahoo site. A question came up that I have wondered also. On the ACA site when you receive an email alert you can scan down and read the message. Is this possible on bogley?

    Mark
    A link (below) was posted at the Yahoo group about email intergration with a forum. I doubt I would use it (unless Bogley eventually gets blocked at work) but can something like this be applied here?

    http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=151222

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