Rah! Rah! yahoo

[jman]

How do you know what my skills level are? Just because I post on Bogley doesn't mean I don't have equal qualifications as a member on Yahoo Groups (and visa versa). I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on. Just because I don't have TR for every single trip, and because every one of my posts isn't about the correct anchoring on the 3rd rap of the trip, or another thread asking if 50 feet of webbing is sufficient or if 60 feet of webbing is sufficient, doesn't mean I'm "anti-technical".

no need to take it personal, it's obviously a generality. but, bogley does have a lot more "newbies" compared to canyons, and overall, a lot less experience. the reason is obvious, canyons has been around almost 10 years.

now, the layout sucks. it's barely readable, but when it comes to discussion of anything beyond climb-utah beta, canyons offers better beta and information. that said, bogley has come a long long ways.

it would be nice if we could migrate all the canyons players to better system like bogley has, but a lot of the problem is exactly the points that Tom mentioned earlier. the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

oh yeah, then there is the community politics thing...

I know Tom was speaking in a broad sense to the community - and my reply is part of my nature of letting any uncontested slam dunks get past...

the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

I agree with you on the attitudes part, but very different skill sets and experience levels, I don't agree. How do you judge that we are "very different" from each other?

Example: If someone searched up my outdoor resume on Bogley, they wouldn't find any, except for very few TRs, and I would assume on that they wouldn't think I wasn't too qualified for much harder canyons. Yet, I've done Imlay and Heaps (with high and low water levels), and I've done Sandthrax, Egypt 4, and attempted Scorpion West but didn't have the hardware to advance past the crux (bad beta on my part, and that reminds me, I'll bet forum8fox would love this canyon!). But no one would of guessed that...

I agree 1000% percent that it would be great if everyone could come together and share what everyone has. How do we do that?

[CarpeyBiggs]

I know Tom was speaking in a broad sense to the community - and my reply is part of my nature of letting any uncontested slam dunks get past...

hahaha. fair enough.

Just because there are more noobs? Forum8Fox of Bogley was possibly the first known ascent of Sandthrax, can Canyons claim that? And that was just after 3 weeks of his introduction to Canyoneering. Maybe, he is a fluke in the populous, but still...

i hardly doubt jason would "claim" a group. likely doesn't care (though he can post for himself). and it wasn't he who climbed up it, it was his friend. he posts on both groups regularly. do you really want to tally points by "team." it's silly.

jason, however, is not experienced. he admits it in his TRs. athletic? yep. skilled? yep. brass balls? check. crazy fit? got that too...

but experience only comes with doing canyons, and doing LOTS of them, and knowing how to size up the dozens of scenarios one might encounter.
another significant difference is age group. bogley does encourage newbies to post, and also the young guys. canyons has more of a "good old boys" mentality. at least it might seem like it at first glance.

regardless, it's not an argument about if one group is better than the other. they are different, and that's all there is to it. i spend a lot of time with people from both groups, so i can only speak from my experiences. but the difference is pretty distinct.

YMMV.

[Felicia]

I agree 1000% percent that it would be great if everyone could come together and share what everyone has. How do we do that?

Simple:

Pick a topic - I suggest the one that Tom has already started.

Inventory yourself and identify some of your own strengths that you are willing to share and participate in those areas. ie: technical knowledge of a certain subject.

Also inventory yourself and identify an area or two where you need to develop - watch for pitfalls and don't get sucked in unprepared. ie: don't be a snot.

If this was a meeting or a training class, we could "shut down" the interrupters, but the keyboard gives them just as much right to participate. I seldom choose to engage them. With their own words, they make themselves look bad.

[jman]

regardless, it's not an argument about if one group is better than the other. they are different, and that's all there is to it. i spend a lot of time with people from both groups, so i can only speak from my experiences. but the difference is pretty distinct.

YMMV.

Perfect! I concur. It isn't between which one is better, I agree, although Tom did initially point out that this couldn't happen on Bogley due to our "anti-technical" attitude.

Then again, maybe he's right? There has been no life in the threads he created about the incident......

[hank moon]

Then again, maybe he's right? There has been no life in the threads he created about the incident......

or perhaps it's more that the frankness and detail of the TRs already published (esp. from TNTRebel), has dampened the field for the moment?

[ratagonia]

Then again, maybe he's right? There has been no life in the threads he created about the incident......

or perhaps it's more that the frankness and detail of the TRs already published (esp. from TNTRebel), has dampened the field for the moment?

People have been playing by the rules.

The rules (at the moment) are: the ball is in the principles's court to shoot next - first to provide information in response to the questions, then to provide a self-critique before everyone else (for instance, Scott Card) jumps all over their case.

Those guys have done an excellent job of communicating and laying it all out to date - the best I ever have seen! I hope they will continue to play (though they may get weary of the whole thing); but at the moment we are in a waiting pattern. I hope people will respect that and give it space.

Tom

[Scott P]

I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on.

That

[cookiecutter]

1. Participation of the folks involved in the discussion would be helpful to understand what happened. While the story has generously been told in detail, questions remain on specific details of thinking (rather than details of actions, which are well-told). Also, the debrief would be more effective if the people involved get the first chance to critique their own actions.

2. People who participate on Bogley but not on Canyons are an important constituency for the kind of information a good debrief would generate. Less politely, the technical level at Bogley in general is not as high as the technical level at Canyons Group, and Bogleyites are more likely to repeat the same mistakes unless they are made extremely clear. Canyons Group certainly includes a wide range of abilities, and Bogley certainly has the advantage that people with little technical knowledge or canyon experience have no compunctions about posting and sharing their opinions. (see the next point).

3. To me, one of the factors that needs to be discussed is what I call "the Bogley attitude", by which I mean the attitude that this stuff is not really all that technical, so there is not that much to know. My comments in an effective debrief would take aim squarely at this attitude, and would hopefully penetrate some of the hard-headed, anti-technicality of the Bogley environment.

Tom (no moses, though this is hardly rant-free)

Just a few points:

1. Tom reminds me, in attitude and mannerisms, of Dr. Cox on the t.v. Scrubs. For those of you who haven't seen the show, Dr. Cox is the guy with all the experience and skills and is very blunt - occasionally arrogant - to the residents who are working with him. However, he does so to get experienced points across without dancing around trying to please everyone. He succeeds in pissing some people off but in the end he really cares about his patients and is doing all of this for their best interest...aww warm fuzies. Look, if you can open yer eyes Tom is trying to help out here. I've been on the canyons group for maybe, maybe, 2 weeks now? You can tell a difference in content. Not saying Bogley doesn't have the quality, its just weeded in with a lot of other stuff (some by me). Having the 'to-the-point' conversations that take place over there on the format of the Bogley site would be extremely beneficial. You may call me a Tom suck up but its cool, after all it was his book and ropes that got me into the sport. Despite my suckingupedness he still will get on me when I say something stupid, because I really think he cares about helping.

Alright, number 2:

Bogley has a user friendly format (as mentioned above). I think that in itself has a lure to noobies. When first getting into the sport (I am still a noobie with not much experience) this site was extremely easy to get going with and easy to post on. The canyon group setup just isn't. I'm not saying experienced technical canyoneers relate more easily to a crappy formatted site, but that Bogley is much more open to someone just getting started. And that a great thing IF we can get some more technical conversations by the tons of peeps on here that know their stuff.

Jaden

[jman]

[quote=Scott P]

I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on.

That

[hank moon]

Cookie, that is the best character sketch of TJ I've seen. Of course there are many facets to our beloved Mr. Jones, with the, uh, "Cox" facet (i.e. good-hearted arrogance) showing but one of his many endearing traits.



p.s. never seen 'Scrubs', though...

1. Tom reminds me, in attitude and mannerisms, of Dr. Cox on the t.v. Scrubs. For those of you who haven't seen the show, Dr. Cox is the guy with all the experience and skills and is very blunt - occasionally arrogant - to the residents who are working with him. However, he does so to get experienced points across without dancing around trying to please everyone. He succeeds in pissing some people off but in the end he really cares about his patients and is doing all of this for their best interest...aww warm fuzies. Look, if you can open yer eyes Tom is trying to help out here. I've been on the canyons group for maybe, maybe, 2 weeks now? You can tell a difference in content. Not saying Bogley doesn't have the quality, its just weeded in with a lot of other stuff (some by me). Having the 'to-the-point' conversations that take place over there on the format of the Bogley site would be extremely beneficial. You may call me a Tom suck up but its cool, after all it was his book and ropes that got me into the sport. Despite my suckingupedness he still will get on me when I say something stupid, because I really think he cares about helping.

[Scott P]

So with that, here ya go, (including all significant forks):

Robbers Roost
-Lost Park Canyon
-Upper Horseshoe Canyon
-Larry Canyon
-White Roost
-Blue John
-Tidwell
-Low Spur Canyon
-Clear Water
-White Roost
-Easter Pasture Canyon (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
-Alcatraz Canyon
-Big Spring
-Lost Spring Canyon
-Mindbender

Hmm, I guess even if you didn

[Spidey]

Oh yeah well I'm the best canyoneer in the world and I post over on the yahoo group. Peace I'm outa here. Over to the yahoo group. Where there's some experience.

[jman]

Sorry Scott, I should of mentioned above that those were the ones that I could remember top of my head.

Yup, forgot a few: Buck, Beaver, Bull Pasture, North F of Three Canyon, Moonshine W. Fork, Sams Box Left Fork and No Mans.

Thanks for the suggestions! I will add those to my list.

West Fork has a good amount of water (I went in late May) and has a great spring to fill up at. And it's more of a day-hike than technical (like you mentioned above). I don't remember any rappels, but don't quote me on that entirely. It has a few seeps which makes it colorful along the way. YEAH its open and fairly wide. The hanging gardens is always a nice view in the desert. That one is fairly small but very impressive because its really thick (vegetation growth). But by far, the right fork of Larry is the best. Sorry if that wasn't too helpful. I'll dig through some old notes and see what else I can find for ya.

I mean, if you are JUST going down there for that canyon alone, IN MY opinion, it's not worth it. If ya got a few days and want to tick it off - it's a okay canyon.

[moab mark]

This has been interesting. I am a silent follower of the yahoo site. Hard to follow the format and if your not in the loop your an outsider? Everyone keeps stating that the yahoo site has a higher degree of technical posts? I agree there are probably more people on yahoo with vast technical experience but where are all these technical posts? I am probably wrong but I cannot think of a discussion on yahoo about how to handle ? The feeling I get on yahoo is most everyone already knows how to handle every imaginable problem that could occur so they just don't discuss it? The ACA site use to be a great place to go for technical questions but there does not seem to be many posting there anymore.

I can't decide after reading this thread if I have been doing a disservice by trying to get noob type technical discussions going because I haven't done xyz x rated canyon? If this is the feeling out there and I am putting people at risk by putting ideas in their heads please let me know and I will gladly stop and just follow along?

Mark

Mark

[jman]

I can't decide after reading this thread if I have been doing a disservice by trying to get noob type technical discussions going because I haven't done xyz x rated canyon? If this is the feeling out there and I am putting people at risk by putting ideas in their heads please let me know and I will gladly stop and just follow along?

Mark

Mark

Mark you aren't doing a disservice at all, in my opinion. I think its very helpful to have the discussions that you've been starting. The more discussion, the better for the community. With Canyoneering, it's more hands-on environment vs. lecture/ideology/lack of better word. But, without the core of Canyoneering, the hands-on will only get you so far (like the Subway, and that's it!). I mean anchor building, Knots, Handlines, Belaying, Sequencing, Rappelling basics, contigency or backup anchors, blocks, ascending, guided rappels, bolts, retrievable anchors, swimming-disconnects, multi-pitch rappels, class-c waterfalls, potholes, keeper potholes, hooks, picks, soooo much information, that you can't really learn hands-on, spare of the moment. This just shows you some thinking that goes on in a noobs mind...when I first learned about Canyoneering 2001, I was thrilled and the Subway was my first canyon. I was hooked after that. After signing up with Yahoo Groups and finding information on Shane's site a few years after that, I was shocked to learn what a keeper pothole was. I never thought of something like that existing. I just thought Canyoneering was entering a canyon similar to the Subway or LWH and jumping through cold water, and having some downclimbs. Boy, was I embarrassed (and shocked that I could of killed myself, if I went unprepared, not knowing anything) when I learned more about it....

Mark that's what this forum is for I believe. Don't be shy!

And, on a side-note, I'm SLOWLY, very slowly, designing a canyoneering website that has all of the aforementioned skills on itt. Think of it as a Dummy guide, or Falcon guide, or handbook, whatever. So far it has over 60 pages of notes and LOTS of pictures/guides/knots/situations etc. in it. And it is very layman speak, so mistakes are practically non-existant. And it would be freely distributable. I think having something like this online (in a exhaustive/comprehensive form) would prove to be invaluable for beginning and intermediate canyoneers. It would be easy to link to certain pages and people would be able to add their own thoughts. Almost like a wiki.

[Sombeech]

If the complaint is that we don't cater only to the experts, don't expect that to change. If the high society wants to keep in their shitty Yahoo format and stay away from the commoners, let 'em.

The Yahoo Group member is the type of person that prints out their emails and stacks the paper on their desk, then deletes the email. They say "it's easier to find this way". They want to show more than 5 pictures to a friend, so they burn it to a CD and mail it to them. They don't agree with all of these fancy schmancy photo hosting services. And then they ask for the CD back in a month so they can mail it to somebody else.

These are the same people who forward you that email saying something will pop up on your screen after you forward that to 11 other people.

You know all of those funny email video clips you've sent them? Yeah, they've burned them to a CD just in case this whole internet thing is a fad.

The Yahoo Groups is just one step ahead of being Pen Pals to a group of people. When emoticons came along, it blew their freakin' minds.

So, why "all of the experts are on Yahoo Groups" is beyond me. If they're just trying to stay in a civilized place where they can talk about the correct color of helmet in the month of August, then I would call that...... sheltered.

[CarpeyBiggs]

If the complaint is that we don't cater only to the experts, don't expect that to change. If the high society wants to keep in their shitty Yahoo format and stay away from the commoners, let 'em.

The Yahoo Group member is the type of person that prints out their emails and stacks the paper on their desk, then deletes the email. They say "it's easier to find this way". They want to show more than 5 pictures to a friend, so they burn it to a CD and mail it to them. They don't agree with all of these fancy schmancy photo hosting services. And then they ask for the CD back in a month so they can mail it to somebody else.

These are the same people who forward you that email saying something will pop up on your screen after you forward that to 11 other people.

You know all of those funny email video clips you've sent them? Yeah, they've burned them to a CD just in case this whole internet thing is a fad.

The Yahoo Groups is just one step ahead of being Pen Pals to a group of people. When emoticons came along, it blew their freakin' minds.

So, why "all of the experts are on Yahoo Groups" is beyond me. If they're just trying to stay in a civilized place where they can talk about the correct color of helmet in the month of August, then I would call that...... sheltered.

the classic bogley ('beech) argument. completely misses all of the REAL reasons why canyons exists and stays with the old yahoo group.

mainly, it has to do with the archive that's over there, which is substantial. and the fact that it has been around for 10 years. and the fear is if they try to migrate the entire user group, lots of people won't come along because it takes work. and it's not really "broken" so much as it just isn't as nice as the bogley interface. and many people prefer to get the messages in a daily digest that goes to their inbox, so they don't have to follow it on the group.

the idea that bogley doesn't cater to the experts has nothing to do with it. that is simply a byproduct of the fact that a majority of the hardcore canyoneers from the last decade have been participating over there, and they gain little to nothing by participating over here.

all the rest of your mumbling up top just demonstrates why a lot of people won't participate HERE, when they probably otherwise would. they think the moderators and participants act like ignoramuses, as your response here perfectly demonstrates. (that very culture has been celebrated here since as long as i've been here... i.e. derailing threads, posting stupid photos, etc...) we've debated this endlessly with you, and each time, you display your ignorance...

did you intend to make tom's point for him yet again?

[James_B_Wads2000]

[moab mark]

Beech,

Have you got rocks in your head? I do not know the ownership layot etc of this site but I think you are involved in it. From looking at the post totals for bogley canyoneering is a large part of the game. So why do you feel it's a smart decision to go and tell a group of potential players to go stick up their ***. Yes their format sucks, but theres alot of potential bogleyites over there. With knowledge that I wish was shared HERE.

The part that really urks me is you do not even play in this arena? Why do you drop in and drop an A bomb and set the game back 10 years?

I am a casual canyoneer I participate in a wide variety of outdoor sports, the canyoneering community is a querky group. What interests me in canyoneering is you get to play with ropes and see amazing country.
Since the ACA site has dropped off there is pretty much bogley and canyons carrying the ball. Do you know how much better this site would be if there wasn't just the dozen or so canyoneers posting most of the time?

So I guess my point is go hang out in the General Discussion section or the Rubbish Bin but let's not try to piss off potential customers. Most of the canyon players will probably never post on bogley but your not helping the cause.

Mark

[tanya]

Variety is the spice of life guys. Can you imagine only looking at one woman for the rest of your life.

I ADORE RAM and SHANE and I even quite like TOM. (Can't rave about TOM too much or it goes to his head and he is my neighbor. Ran into him at the store last night ) These are the big 3 that do most of the posting. Heck, I even like that old stick in the mud Rich Carlson (hi Rich. I know someone will run and tell you your name came up in here, but that's cool. I like to see you post) and am thrilled to see any of them post on serious canyoneering subjects, or just hanging loose and having fun with fellow outdoor types and I have heard Shane say the same thing. He might not always agree with them, but I believe he does like them to post and he likes debate with them. I do understand that getting some canyoneering people to like and enjoy each other is a lost cause because I have tried and its hopeless!

There is nothing wrong with either group. Although most of the Canyon's posts don't interest me, (man's technical stuff) as well as the posts in my own Yahoo Zion National Park group (where both Dean - who I also adore and Ram are moderators), but neither do most of the Bogley posts. The difference in Bogley is its easy to avoid the ones that have no interest to me. I do enjoy trip reports in all the groups, reading them and posting them - mostly I like them anywhere in Zion or this part of the GSEM - or RAM stories anywhere!

Even if you are not into canyoneering, you should read the RAM stories. They are CHARMING!!! They are human - full of care and exceptionally well written!

Perhaps this is the
main difference between
Bogley (Shane) and Canyons (RAM)...
The way they think and their
personalities rather than the
mechanics of the groups.

It was hard to get me to come to Bogley because I love yahoo even though I agree with what Beech said and its old and archaic, but so are some of us! I think it was over a year or so after being invited by Beech and Iceaxe that I finally began to post, and I missed Shane's posts in my group a LOT, but still I could not bring myself to venture over to the new technology.

Of everything on the net - posts by Shane are what I enjoy the most!!!! and always have. I know everyone does not feel the same, but I find them funny --- and he is so much like me, only he is more out spoken, but we do think the same on almost everything. (Is that scary or what!?!?!)

Then I found other friends here too... 'Beech, Alex, Savannah... and many others and now I come here to see what's up with all my friends.

Most of the time I spend online (or off for that matter) I am taking a break from writing or other work and just want to relax and have fun and honestly I get a kick out of watching you guys fight over bolts or some other thing that if you walked away for a year you would laugh at.

Bottom line - I see the need for both groups. Take away competition and we get fat and lazy. The only ones we compete with are those we respect and want to be a part of! If you all did not see something in Bogley or Canyons that you want/like/need .. you would not bother with it at all.

Like it or not guys ... Tom, Rich, Shane, Ram.... you are the GUYS! You do CARE about each other or you would be apathetic about each other.

Like whip-cream on a sundae is Bo, Hank and Brian! Those are the GUYS too, but Rich is ACA, Shane is Bogley, Ram is Canyons, Tom is THE Emperor, but Brian's wit I adore and Hank's frankness is great and Bo's skill and knowledge is undeniable. There are others but being around as long as I have now, these were the first names that caught my attention, they were in that original ACA disagreement [all but Bo! who has steered clear of most of it](The historic ACA drama I think is the root of all this evil!!!! or at least the culmination of it at that time) even though so many more of you are very much THE CANYONEER too!

PS - I hate rules (being controlled)!
The rules in both groups suck.
But yes, I understand the need for them.

By the way -- I have no idea what you are all fighting about this time and have not read any of the threads. I was just bored and up early and thought I would say all that stuff. My guess, however, is the fight is the same one that has been going on for the last several years, so I am probably safe with all I said.