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Thread: Rah! Rah! yahoo

  1. #1
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trackrunner
    Those involved I have to ask now that time has passed what do you think you would have done better, learn beforehand, practice, tech training, self rescue training, etc.
    Well, a good question. Now that we've all expressed great relief that everything came out ok other than Dad's knee, are 'we' ready for a real, critical analysis? Don't mistake that for a simple question.

    A real debrief would involve some painful statements. LOTS of stuff to say about this whole thing. A lot of ground to cover. Are the principle actors up for (recovered enough for) to do a good job of this, and allow themselves to be criticized? Are the Bogley BigShots willing to give up their posturing and cheap frat-boy 'jokes' (including pointing up my arrogance - a too-easy target!) in order to participate as mature adults? Y'all up for an adult discussion, unlike normal Bogley-fare?

    The Canyons Group Big Shots are very clear that this kind of adult conversation is not something that can take place over here in the "Bog". I have hopes that it can. I think it is important to do so here for three main reasons:

    1. Participation of the folks involved in the discussion would be helpful to understand what happened. While the story has generously been told in detail, questions remain on specific details of thinking (rather than details of actions, which are well-told). Also, the debrief would be more effective if the people involved get the first chance to critique their own actions.

    2. People who participate on Bogley but not on Canyons are an important constituency for the kind of information a good debrief would generate. Less politely, the technical level at Bogley in general is not as high as the technical level at Canyons Group, and Bogleyites are more likely to repeat the same mistakes unless they are made extremely clear. Canyons Group certainly includes a wide range of abilities, and Bogley certainly has the advantage that people with little technical knowledge or canyon experience have no compunctions about posting and sharing their opinions. (see the next point).

    3. To me, one of the factors that needs to be discussed is what I call "the Bogley attitude", by which I mean the attitude that this stuff is not really all that technical, so there is not that much to know. My comments in an effective debrief would take aim squarely at this attitude, and would hopefully penetrate some of the hard-headed, anti-technicality of the Bogley environment.

    Factors that might make a de-brief at Bogley ineffective include:

    1. The Bogley hard-headed, anti-technical attitude. To me, Ice is the source of the poster boy of this problem; and Bogleyites taking umbrage at being called incompetent (and their friends being called incompetent) will interfere with an effective debrief.

    2. Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).

    3. Rawness/Emotion: hey, it has only been a week, and there are significant emotions involved for quite a few people here. It may not be possible to have an adult conversation here with people keyed up by the recent events.

    4. Bogley threads rarely stay on track and on purpose. Even if I lay down some ground rules for the discussion, will people follow them?

    5. Perhaps my arrogant attitude has already pissed off enough people that an adult conversation over here on Bogley is no longer possible.

    So, players, you up for a good debrief - If so I have spent some time contemplating a useful format and style, and can kick it off soon, if y'all are up for some of the stuff I've talked about above.

    In any case, it is likely a parallel and/or subsequent debrief would also take place over on Canyons Group, and it would be great if the players could also participate over there.

    Tom (no moses, though this is hardly rant-free)

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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).
    Sounds like a personal problem

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    In any case, it is likely a parallel and/or subsequent debrief would also take place over on Canyons Group, and it would be great if the players could also participate over there.
    Well, now, isn't this interesting.

    I needs me one of them popcorn eatin' emoticons...!

    Cheers and good luck.

    -Brian in SLC

  5. #4
    As a "Bogley Big Shot", I'm very interested in where this goes. I'm a Big Shot as far as a forum member goes, but I certainly don't consider myself a "Canyoneering" Big Shot (not a chance!). I know that I'm often guilty of derailing threads, because of my propensity for being snarky, and leaping upon any opportunity for sophomoric humour. On this kind of forum, that's so easy to do...

    I think that what Tom and Shaun are talking about may be possible here, but the main players have to be reminded that this is not personal, it's not vindictive, and it's not people being petty. The best way to improve safety for everyone out there is an impartial analysis of the situation, the facts, the actions, the motivations, the intentions, etc. etc. etc.

    Are we up for that? I hope so. I'm also reading what's happening on Yahoo (I always do) but I'd like to see some good analysis here, too. I consider this my Utah/canyons home, having never felt particularly comfortable over there - I'm too snotty, kind of flippant, and don't canyoneer enough to even try to be taken seriously over on the "light" side (damn, I wish I could.)

    Let's give it a go, eh?

  6. #5
    Just start a topic, state in the first post that the "Rules of posting in this thread" are that you stay on topic and have a serious discussion. Even state that if a user abuses the request for that thread, that the moderator would be asked to remove their comment.

    I think those rules would be followed quite well, and if not, the moderator could be asked to delete the user's post. Simple enough.

    I don't think anybody here opposes the serious conversation. The majority of the forum users are here to socialize, read about outdoor adventures, and try to learn more about it. If the rules are right up front, I'd definitely respect that.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrus2000
    As a "Bogley Big Shot", I'm very interested in where this goes. I'm a Big Shot as far as a forum member goes, but I certainly don't consider myself a "Canyoneering" Big Shot (not a chance!). I know that I'm often guilty of derailing threads, because of my propensity for being snarky, and leaping upon any opportunity for sophomoric humour. On this kind of forum, that's so easy to do...

    I think that what Tom and Shaun are talking about may be possible here, but the main players have to be reminded that this is not personal, it's not vindictive, and it's not people being petty. The best way to improve safety for everyone out there is an impartial analysis of the situation, the facts, the actions, the motivations, the intentions, etc. etc. etc.

    Are we up for that? I hope so. I'm also reading what's happening on Yahoo (I always do) but I'd like to see some good analysis here, too. I consider this my Utah/canyons home, having never felt particularly comfortable over there - I'm too snotty, kind of flippant, and don't canyoneer enough to even try to be taken seriously over on the "light" side (damn, I wish I could.)

    Let's give it a go, eh?
    +1 All of the above. I'm a junior canyoneer guilty of derailing threads but I'm interested in seeing more serious and technical discussions here (as long as there's still room for a smart-ass like me to be a smart ass in other threads).

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).
    Sounds like a personal problem
    Yahoo Canyons Group
    Attached Images Attached Images  


  9. #8
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by accadacca
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).
    Sounds like a personal problem
    Yahoo Canyons Group
    yeah, but, without Ann Margret...

    T

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    yeah, but, without Ann Margret...




  11. #10

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian in SLC
    To further this most excellant digression...
    bean wrestling - smash the mirror - yeah!

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by accadacca
    Yahoo Canyons Group
    Yahoo Groups.... or to be more exact.... land of the Dinosaur.....



    It appears Tom has become a little delusional in his old age.... A legend in his own mind..... maybe 5 years ago those on Bogley were still sitting at the kiddie table, but Bogley has grown up and is entering its prime..... while Yahoo has moved to eating soft foods in the old folks home and telling old war stories from yesteryear.




  14. #13
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia

    Factors that might make a de-brief at Bogley ineffective include:

    1. The Bogley hard-headed, anti-technical attitude. To me, Ice is the source of the poster boy of this problem; and Bogleyites taking umbrage at being called incompetent (and their friends being called incompetent) will interfere with an effective debrief.
    ...
    5. Perhaps my arrogant attitude has already pissed off enough people that an adult conversation over here on Bogley is no longer possible.
    So nice of you to contribute such useful commentary to the thread, Ice. But I think I already covered that, (see above).

    Calling yourself an adult does not make you an adult.

    Tom

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia
    So nice of you to contribute such useful commentary to the thread, Ice. But I think I already covered that, (see above).

    Calling yourself an adult does not make you an adult.

    Tom
    Does too. Does not.

    Maybe a wise man doesn't try to steer a boat that doesn't have a rudder.

    -Brian in SLC

  16. #15
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    I love the thread name change, whichever mod did that. haha

    Yahoo Groups vs. Bogley.

    Here's the difference:
    Canyon Groups is dedicated to strictly Canyons.
    Bogley is dedicated to the outdoor and its sports.

    Canyon Group may perhaps have more technical members, than Bogley? Perhaps not. One can argue that Canyons do talk more technical than here. But, to think that us Bogley members do not talk technical or our anti-technical (and our "attitude") is a little unfair. There have been numerous posts of "is this rigging correct" and "what knot is better" and "benefits of biner blocks" etc. But to think that we are non-technical is a little brash.

    How do you know what my skills level are? Just because I post on Bogley doesn't mean I don't have equal qualifications as a member on Yahoo Groups (and visa versa). I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on. Just because I don't have TR for every single trip, and because every one of my posts isn't about the correct anchoring on the 3rd rap of the trip, or another thread asking if 50 feet of webbing is sufficient or if 60 feet of webbing is sufficient, doesn't mean I'm "anti-technical".

    My purpose is not to come across ad hominem, but stating that these are two different boards. Some like Yahoo Groups better, some like Bogley better. And we can have just as serious dicussions as anyone else.

    And just like everyone else, I'm learning about new places, and new techniques, etc. That's what these boards are here for. And I'm glad there is a AAR (we did this after every fire working for the BLM in St. George) on the Larry Canyon incident. This will further our maturity here.

  17. #16
    Bogley BigShot
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    "You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon'"


    I just thought I should say something here.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by tanya
    "You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon'"


    I just thought I should say something here.
    It's 2009 :)

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jman
    How do you know what my skills level are? Just because I post on Bogley doesn't mean I don't have equal qualifications as a member on Yahoo Groups (and visa versa). I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on. Just because I don't have TR for every single trip, and because every one of my posts isn't about the correct anchoring on the 3rd rap of the trip, or another thread asking if 50 feet of webbing is sufficient or if 60 feet of webbing is sufficient, doesn't mean I'm "anti-technical".
    no need to take it personal, it's obviously a generality. but, bogley does have a lot more "newbies" compared to canyons, and overall, a lot less experience. the reason is obvious, canyons has been around almost 10 years.

    now, the layout sucks. it's barely readable, but when it comes to discussion of anything beyond climb-utah beta, canyons offers better beta and information. that said, bogley has come a long long ways.

    it would be nice if we could migrate all the canyons players to better system like bogley has, but a lot of the problem is exactly the points that Tom mentioned earlier. the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

    oh yeah, then there is the community politics thing...

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeyBiggs

    the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

    oh yeah, then there is the community politics thing...

    "Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted."

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Felicia
    Why does there need to be such a drive to sustain/preserve negative attitudes and community politics?
    it has 3 letters

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