Larry Canyon Debrief Part I: Trip Choice and Preparation

[ratagonia]

Please read debrief format before posting to this thread.

Part I will discuss everything up to entering the canyon, including choice of partners and canyon, choice of stuff brought along and events at the start of the day. This will allow the 'players' to introduce themselves and provide information about their background (aka 'resume').

Here are the relevant paragraphs from the story told to date:

[quote=Chungy22]
I am Nick's (jaxx's) little bro and the hiker that was not injured in this whole ordeal. Have fun reading.

Larry Canyon 2009

We decided to go on one last canyoneering trip before the snow came in and would not allow us to backpack in the beautiful southern Utah slot canyons. My Dad and I were very excited about this weekend. We were going to first go to camp inbetween the Larry Canyon entrance and exit so that we could start from there in the morning.

The voyage down was pretty uneventful. We left Orem around 4 PM on Friday December 4th. We went to scout where the canyons were that we were going to hike. We were going to hike Larry Canyon on Saturday and then the shorter Alcatraz Canyon on Sunday before we left. We drove to the first rappel in Alcatraz and it is supposed to be 165

[ratagonia]

a matter of timing.

[quote=TNTRebel]
Maybe this belongs in the new blog started by ratagonia, but I'll post here first...What gear did we carry and what was the gear that saved us, and what did we

[ratagonia]

OK. Where to start?
Most of my comments will be from what my dad told me. He can come on here and defend himself, I will spread the gossip and rumors.


They were trying to hurry in the canyon because of the late start so they could find the exit in the daylight. They downclimbed alot of stuff already that had been bolted so this wasn't a worry. Dad got to a point where he felt he couldn't go any farther and turned to tell chungy that he needed the rope. He slipped as he was turning to tell him. Landed facing down hitting his waterbottle and camera case that were strapped to the front of his backpack straps and also hitting his forehead on rock. The helmet saved his life.

Obviously have a rope in the ready while downclimbing just in case. Is this really a valid option? I have never set up a rope before downclimbing. The point is to save time. Mabey more valid is know your limits?

They stayed calm and he stabilized his knee with a makeshift splint out of webbing and backpack frame. A+ IMHO.

got to the last 2 raps, running out of daylight. Discussed options and decided to push 911 on the SPOT.
Other options were to have Chungy hike out and call for help Or help dad out in the morning, taking a seriously long time and possible second bivy night in the canyon.

gathered firewood, built small windshield out of rocks. took inventory of food and water. They were good for the night for sure. A+

Now this is where I come in:

We should have tried to lower stuff to them. Water and real food. We had beef stew and other stuff in the car. We had 1.5 gallons of water in our backpacks. We had warm weather clothes and about 470 ft. of rope on us. It would have been a difficult throw but we should have tried atleast. It dropped a couple of times with 50ft wide shelfs inbetween a 100 ft and 250 ft drop. so about 100 ft out and 350 feet down. I doubt we could have made it past the two shelves.

We should have gone back in in the morning and found the exit crack. We had to wait for SAR to get there so we could direct them to Dad and chungy.
We could have taken Chungy out in the morning. We thought the heli would take everyone out so we didn't worry about a plan B.

When SAR got there we showed them where they were and just sat back.

They sent the whole rap team in. No one was left up top who knew any ropework from SAR.
Obviously that shouldn't have happened.

When it was getting later we should have offered to go down to the bottom just incase they needed help from the bottom. Plan B.

We should have taken the litter out with the ropes they had set up. We should have also lowered water,food, and headlamps to SAR and Chungy.

We could have set up a haul system and hauled them out but they wouldn't let Chad and I do anything with their ropes, liability reasons.

I should be better at navigating. I get lost all the time. The dark just added to that. I can't describe the feeling other than disheartening not being able to find the exit crack, failure would suffice.

Better maps would be awesome. The map we had was printed out quickly before we ran out the door and it didn't show alot of detail.

Chungy had a GPS. It ran out of batteries and he didn't know how to use it. The coords for the exit crack were marked.
Make sure others know how to use your GPS. It ran out of batteries and they gave up on it. Dad ALWAYS has extra batteries. the SPOT had fresh batteries in it they could have used.

Dont try to get out of that canyon with the horse trail. it is unmarked and difficult to find, even in the light. It is in a different wash seperated by hills.

So having a plan B would have saved the second heli. If I hadn't been so lax and mabey a little more proactive it could have helped alot. Finding that exit in the light would have changed everything.

SUMMARY:
HAVE A PLAN B EVEN IF PLAN A IS A DEFINITE. Make sure you can successfully carry out plan B (find the exit in the light so you don't have to try to in the dark)

Don't lower crap into the canyon until you know you need it.

Don't take your whole team into the canyon. Leave a ropework guy uptop

Don't wear doc martin's into a canyon. Even if you think you will be air lifted out.

Always carry your own food, water, headlamps just incase you have to hike out in the dark.

We should have lowered the needed gear to SAR and lifted out the litter before we pulled their ropes.

I need better orienteering skills.

Learn to use GPS even if you don't own one.

I learned that SAR had my dad and Chungy drink a bunch of their own water because they were getting dehydrated waiting for the heli. That is why they didn't have any water while hiking.

SAR told my dad they aren't trained in high angle rescue so that wasn't an option for them to haul them back up to the top. down or heli were the two options for them. I didn't know this until we were home.

SPOT called SAR dispatch and told them that they recieved a 911 cancelled message and SAR called off the search. SPOT should have never made that call and I am currently in an email "discussion" with them about that.
The Sherriff told us he would have made sure to make contact with us before totally cancelling the search.
Because SPOT called dispatch the SAR guys were postponed in the morning.


Deputize the two dudes that helped out!

[ratagonia]

[quote=ratagonia]a matter of timing.

[quote=TNTRebel]
Maybe this belongs in the new blog started by ratagonia, but I'll post here first...What gear did we carry and what was the gear that saved us, and what did we

[moab mark]

I have found these posts educational and I am going to get more prepared in the future. I'm looking for some opinions if the spot had not come thru what would of been the best plan at that point? How long would of it been before your families would of known you were missing?

Again thanks for all of the posts they have opened my eyes up to if something goes south.

Mark

[ratagonia]

I have found these posts educational and I am going to get more prepared in the future. I'm looking for some opinions if the spot had not come thru what would of been the best plan at that point? How long would of it been before your families would of known you were missing?

Again thanks for all of the posts they have opened my eyes up to if something goes south.

Mark

That sounds like the question: did Chungy have the skills and resources to complete the final raps, hike to the exit, climb to the rim and make the distress call (on Sunday morning, at first light)? Sun coming up about 7, seems like could get to the car about 10:30ish? Cell phone in the car? Signal available from there?

Tom

[CarpeyBiggs]

(damn moderator malfunction... this is TNTrebel's response. i accidentally split it off when split the topic. now i have to figure out how to move it back.)

[quote=TNTrebel]Sorry for the delay in posting and this post will not provide what ya

[Chungy22]

1. Who are you, what is your experience, what is your training? A brief resume of canyons done and your role in prior adventures (leader, follower, heckler) and conditions (ie, have you done stuff in winter before), plus any training you have had either formal or informal, and with whom, plus age and general fitness level. Please include First Aid/Medical training in that resume. TNT-had you had knee problems previously?

Well, I am 22 and in very good shape. Not the best of my life, but still in very good condition to hike and rappel all day. I am an avid soccer player so fitness is usually not too big an issue for me. Honestly for the experience that I have and then training. It hasn't been too much. I have always gone rappelling with just my Dad. I have been through, I think, 3 canyons besides this one. I have been through two canyons in the Blue John area and then through Granary canyon near Moab. All of those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary. I have always been the follower in those canyons and Larry canyon was kind of the first one that I setup the rappels under the supervision of my Dad. We have done canyons in the early spring before when it was very cold, but never in the winter before. I have only been trained by my Dad both in the canyon and at the Hansen

[Chungy22]

That sounds like the question: did Chungy have the skills and resources to complete the final raps, hike to the exit, climb to the rim and make the distress call (on Sunday morning, at first light)? Sun coming up about 7, seems like could get to the car about 10:30ish? Cell phone in the car? Signal available from there?

Sorry i am not sure how exactly to do a quote from someone.

anyway.... to answer that. I think that I would have had enough water and food to get me the rest of the way out of the canyon and finish the last rappels. I set a few of the earlier rappels in the canyon and then rappelled just fine down them in the dark with SAR. The only thing that would have been difficult would have been finding the exit crack. If my Dad showed me how to use the GPS I think that I would have been able to do that. We decided the first night in the canyon that if there wasn't anyone who contacted us either I would hike out alone and call someone or we would try to hike out together. We did have a signal from where we were and it would not have been too hard to get all the way to the car for me. Especially if I knew that my Dad was still just sitting in the canyon. The thing that worried both of us though was having to split up. We probably would have tried to get my dad down the last two rappels and as far as he could go before we split up.

[ratagonia]

That sounds like the question: did Chungy have the skills and resources to complete the final raps, hike to the exit, climb to the rim and make the distress call (on Sunday morning, at first light)? Sun coming up about 7, seems like could get to the car about 10:30ish? Cell phone in the car? Signal available from there?

Sorry i am not sure how exactly to do a quote from someone.

anyway.... to answer that. I think that I would have had enough water and food to get me the rest of the way out of the canyon and finish the last rappels. I set a few of the earlier rappels in the canyon and then rappelled just fine down them in the dark with SAR. The only thing that would have been difficult would have been finding the exit crack. If my Dad showed me how to use the GPS I think that I would have been able to do that. We decided the first night in the canyon that if there wasn't anyone who contacted us either I would hike out alone and call someone or we would try to hike out together. We did have a signal from where we were and it would not have been too hard to get all the way to the car for me. Especially if I knew that my Dad was still just sitting in the canyon. The thing that worried both of us though was having to split up. We probably would have tried to get my dad down the last two rappels and as far as he could go before we split up.

Thanks Chungy. That second rappel at the end is really awkward, and would have been hard to do with a smashed knee. Depending on exactly where the anchor was set up, it could be a very hard start. So it would have been challenging to get your Dad down that, just the two of you. It would, however, have made the evac much easier, as a litter could have been carried to a helicopter landing spot.

Will be interested to see what your Dad has to say to these questions.

Tom

[TNTRebel]

1. Who are you, what is your experience, what is your training? A brief resume of canyons done and your role in prior adventures (leader, follower, heckler) and conditions (ie, have you done stuff in winter before), plus any training you have had either formal or informal, and with whom, plus age and general fitness level. Please include First Aid/Medical training in that resume. TNT-had you had knee problems previously?

Thanks. Tom

TNTRebel - 28 years ago I wanted to be an Ambulance Driver and Firefighter, so I started training with a local group of volunteers in Richfield Utah. We tried a few rappels for training (scaring the bejeebees out of me and going into a fully engulfed house that was donated to test our firefighting skills. I went through the EMT training and became certified as an EMT and eventually as a CPR instructor. Eventually learning I could have fun in the career, but couldn

[TNTRebel]

2. What was the process by which you chose to do this particular canyon, over many other available options?

I and Jaxx have had our eye on this canyon since we did the epic journey from Main Blue John through Horseshoe canyon. We were looking for a canyon that may not include water, but we were prepared incase we hit some, but were hoping for no water. Which is what we found. Some of the potholes would have been impossible to pass without getting wet if they had water. We were planning on stripping down, putting on our water socks and hoping for the best drying off and getting dressed on the other side. We both had neoprene socks just incase we got too cold. I went through Lost Spring canyon with my daughter the weekend before and didn

[TNTRebel]

3. What information did you gather about this canyon and from where?

Climb-Utah.com and CanyoneeringUSA.com are our favorite places for information on canyons in Utah. I was very concerned about the exit and how difficult it was going to be and find. I

[TNTRebel]

4. What did you bring in your packs for the day, and why?

-Maps and instructions of Larry

[dbaxter]

Thanks for all you've shared! This is really helpful.

[TNTRebel]

5. Also, a couple more specific questions like where did you camp? (sounds like on the slickrock area at the top of Alcatraz).

We camped 2 miles from the entrance to Larrys Canyon, and about 1.5 miles from the top of the exit to Larry

[TNTRebel]

5. What do you mean by 'you will always have a belay' (do you mean that you provide an active belay, or just that the anchor is backed up (to meat) with the other part of the rope)?

Depends on if we are with a group of Young Men or not

[TNTRebel]

Thanks for all you've shared! This is really helpful.

You all have been very nice, maybe cause I'm a nob at this forum, but thanks for the kind words, and now you can start shooting...

[Chungy22]

I told you he would be more thorough on getting you information. I am very glad that he was so detailed about everything. It gives a better idea about what we have done. I have done almost all of those non-technical canyons with him as well. I just specified the technical canyons in my post. And like Tntrebel I would like to thank everyone for not beating on us too bad. There were mistakes made, but we have learned from them and will implement those lessons in the canyons that we do in the future.

[ratagonia]

And like Tntrebel I would like to thank everyone for not beating on us too bad.

Yet.




ha ha... well, it IS Christmas time.

The amount of detail provided is wonderful. Much criticism takes place in an environment based on few details and lots of assumptions. By providing massive amounts of detail, you have short-circuited the usual internet path of unproductive discussion.

There were mistakes made, but we have learned from them and will implement those lessons in the canyons that we do in the future.

Mmm, yeah...

The NEXT step is for you to point out the lessons you have learned, and then we can open it to general discussion

I think it would be a better place to view it from, if you take the viewpoint that you do NOT YET know the lessons from this incident, and keep an open mind as to what those lessons are.

Tom