Larry Canyon Debrief Part I: Trip Choice and Preparation

[Chungy22]

Yeah, I was only carrying 2 of my own so I did use a few of his on the expedition, but it was mostly his. I now have more of my own! :)

[ratagonia]

The canyon specific gear (for any route) is what I suggest, you are welcome to disagree.

But with regards to Chambers... yeah... a 30' rope and a little webbing is going to cause major problems.

So Dan... any more of your usual cheap ass shots you want to take at me today?

NOTE: THIS SIDE ISSUE SPLIT OFF TO ANOTHER THREAD...

T

[ratagonia]

Yeah, I was only carrying 2 of my own so I did use a few of his on the expedition, but it was mostly his. I now have more of my own! :)

How many do you need? How many SHOULD you take, say, on Larry Canyon, and not carrying reserves to cover other people's lack?

(for anyone who wants to discuss this, please include what rappel device you use and how many biners you use with it).

Trackrunner? Shane? Carpey? Chungy? TNT? BDC? Bueller?

T

[CarpeyBiggs]

ATC XP - usually carry 5 carabiners - one big pear to rap off. 2 attache for biner blocks and tiblocs, etc... and 1 or 2 small locking biners for bunny straps.

though, depending on the canyon i carry more or less. and i'm notorious for taking too few.

for larry, i'd carry 5.

[Brian in SLC]

(for anyone who wants to discuss this, please include what rappel device you use and how many biners you use with it)

I typically use an ATC/ATCxp. I use a locker with it, typically an autolock with a plastic sleeve that has long since lost the ability to autolock so I give it a quarter turn manually. I like it (old DMM's not made anymore, but, I bought around 10 of them, but, only have one or two not grooved out to the point of silly and/or the locking mechanism still sorta functions).

Then I bring a couple of hotwires to add friction since I'm prone to using skinny ropes. Then a couple more biners for fun. A few slings. Set of Prusik cords (my standard now is a single Prusik and a tied rabbit runner that I can use as a small valdy if needed. Both out of that Mammut pro cord 6mm which seems to work well on several thinner ropes).

What are the extra items for: 5 prusiks, valdotain, etrier? 12 carabiners - does that include Chungy's, or did he also bring a pound-a-biners?

I guess this stuff all adds up, but, not really out of the ball park. I've found on numerous occasions that a light alpine aider (etrier) or two is super handy in a canyon. And light and compact enough that they're easy to stash/carry.

Could use the Prusiks for anchors (knot chocks, etc). Valdy is handy for a number of things (up and down a loaded rope, etc). Spare biners are nice. If you needed to rig just about anything (raise, lower, etc) you'd burn up a pile of them for sure.

Almost would prefer to have two standard biners over a single locker. Less chance for the gate to get stuck (sand gets into everything).

Maybe this should be a separate thread too? Standard minimum?

I'd be curious what your standard "stuff" is, Tom. Why don't you tell us exactly what was in your pack for, say, the Black Hole at the recent Freeze Fest, along with what you'd carry for Larry with friends, and compared to what you'd carry if you were guiding it.

Then let us pick it apart (ha ha).

These guys have been more than accomodating with the what, why, when, where, etc. Now lets see what you got.

-Brian in SLC

[hank moon]

These guys have been more than accomodating with the what, why, when, where, etc. Now lets see what you got.

c-c-caint remember!

[FOX]

How many do you need? How many SHOULD you take, say, on Larry Canyon, and not carrying reserves to cover other people's lack?

(for anyone who wants to discuss this, please include what rappel device you use and how many biners you use with it).

Trackrunner? Shane? Carpey? Chungy? TNT? BDC? Bueller?

T

I'll jump in on this. For gear I use an ATC-XP and I normally pack anywhere from 4 to 6 locking biners depending on the canyon and size of the pack I'll be using. For Larry I'd probably take 4. I also always pack extra webbing, some tiblocs, a couple of slings and sometimes a potshot or two.

I remember carrying way too much with me when I first started running canyons. Over the years and as I've gained experience, I've started to learn what's really critical and what's not but I'm always looking for new ideas to refine and clean up my gear/essentials/possibles bag.

I too would be interested in knowing what Tom uses and packs with him most of the time.

[garrettw]

enough already

[ratagonia]

These guys have been more than accomodating with the what, why, when, where, etc. Now lets see what you got.

c-c-caint remember!

c'mon hank. hasn't been that long, has it???

[ratagonia]

The canyon specific gear (for any route) is what I suggest, you are welcome to disagree.

But with regards to Chambers... yeah... a 30' rope and a little webbing is going to cause major problems.

Yup. There are some canyons where anything extra = problems. Chambers is one of them.

[hank moon]

c'mon hank. hasn't been that long, has it???

Well...sorta! My last "real" canyon trip involved a highly technical, cordless descent using camera-case straps and Prusik slings to aid downclimbing drops, y'know. :)

But normally...

I carry from 1-6 'biners depending on the canyon. If it's Keyhole with a competent crew, I go with one (Munter). For Heaps, maybe 6 if using an ATC XP, less with other devices.

A note on rap devices: I generally avoid taking a Pirana in Mae West/climby canyons due to interference with movement (especially downclimbing) when it is worn on the harness. It's ideal to remove the harness for long rap-less sections, but sometimes this isn't practical. Not to mention them horns seem to like hooking on clothing and...sensitive areas...at the worst times.

[TNTRebel]

[quote=ratagonia]

[quote=TNTRebel]
Larry

[ratagonia]

We were purposely hustling this time, and I thought making great time with just two of us that are very experienced with hiking and down-climbing, up-climbing in slot canyons (20+ years or so for me and maybe 10 years for Chungy22). Yes newbies especially when compared to a lot of you on the technical parts of these canyons (rappels), but very experienced with the other aspect of canyoneering.

Well, I am 22 and in very good shape. Not the best of my life, but still in very good condition to hike and rappel all day. Honestly for the experience that I have and then training. It hasn't been too much. I have always gone rappelling with just my Dad. I have been through, I think, 3 canyons besides this one. I have been through two canyons in the Blue John area and then through Granary canyon near Moab. All of those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary.

but very experienced with the other aspect of canyoneering

One does not become experienced with the other aspects of canyoneering by doing non-technical canyons and a little scrambling. It certainly HELPS, but...

One of the give-aways in newspaper articles in Utah about accidents and deaths is the term "experienced outdoorsman". When people get hurt or killed canyoneering, they are often (it seems) "experienced outdoorsman". What that means is that they have a lot of experience in the out-of-doors but NOT in canyoneering. They perhaps have spent years riding ATVs, huntin' and fishin', hiking, mountain biking, etc. But not canyoneering, and not perhaps rock climbing (or other on-rope sports).

I'm stretching for an analogy. If someone drowns in a scuba accident, it really does not do them a lot of good to be an "experienced swimmer". Experience at scuba is what counts.

We see a fair amount of rock climbing accidents and rescues needed by people who are just scrambling around and get stuck. The media labels them "rock climbing" accidents, because the people were climbing on rocks. But us rock climbers don't consider these people rock climbers.

The scuba analogy is too far a reach, because your experience scrambling / downclimbing / rough terrain travelling DOES apply to some extent to canyoneering, but it does not apply as much as you seem to think. IN CANYON, (to me), the only mistake you made was to misjudge a downclimb, and decide that you had misjudged it too late. I, too, often misjudge downclimbs, so I don't think that is so bad, BUT, I call for a rope before I get too far. The error in judgement, to me, was that you got too far down the downclimb before deciding it was not downclimbable. I see this as a result of lack of seasoning on this KIND of downclimbing, at this level of difficulty of downclimbing - a lack of experience.

Welcome to the big leagues.

The standards are different.

From your resume, I see Bluejohn which has downclimbing, some, not much, but I do not see others that do.

All those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary

Haven't done Granary, but I'd like to suggest that your scale is adjusted to "general outdoorsman" activities. Compared to hiking on a trail, these canyons are PRETTY TECHNICAL. In the realm of technical canyoneering, these canyons are Basic, Easy Beginner canyons. Larry on that scale is a somewhat more advanced beginner canyon. Enough so that it caught you by the short and curlies...

Canyoneering route descriptions are written for technical canyoneers, not "experienced outdoorsmen". It is not clear to me that our descriptions provide enough context to place various routes accurately on a more general scale. There's a fair amount of "reading between the lines" required, but people who have been in the canyoneering community for a while have learned where those lines are to read between.

As an aside, this is one problem that I have with Mr. K's books. Mr. K moved into technical canyoneering rather aggressively over the last couple of years, and he is an aggressive and talented downclimber. His publishing of intense, very difficult and dangerous X-type canyons (and his somewhat casual description of them) has some of us old foggies concerned that experienced outdoorsmen will decide to do something "a little harder" and end up in a very difficult canyon, and get hurt or kilt.

Mr. BDC has these same issues with the technical information that I publish (I think). I write for a technical, experienced crowd that is interested in fancy canyoneering 'tricks' - but are these presented with enough context to keep 'experienced outdoorsman' away from trying the tricks without sufficient technical context to understand when and how these tricks work? He has a good point.

Tom

[Cirrus2000]

All those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary

Haven't done Granary, but I'd like to suggest that your scale is adjusted to "general outdoorsman" activities. Compared to hiking on a trail, these canyons are PRETTY TECHNICAL. In the realm of technical canyoneering, these canyons are Basic, Easy Beginner canyons. Larry on that scale is a somewhat more advanced beginner canyon. Enough so that it caught you by the short and curlies...

Canyoneering route descriptions are written for technical canyoneers, not "experienced outdoorsmen". It is not clear to me that our descriptions provide enough context to place various routes accurately on a more general scale. There's a fair amount of "reading between the lines" required, but people who have been in the canyoneering community for a while have learned where those lines are to read between.

As an aside, this is one problem that I have with Mr. K's books. Mr. K moved into technical canyoneering rather aggressively over the last couple of years, and he is an aggressive and talented downclimber. His publishing of intense, very difficult and dangerous X-type canyons (and his somewhat casual description of them) has some of us old foggies concerned that experienced outdoorsmen will decide to do something "a little harder" and end up in a very difficult canyon, and get hurt or kilt.

Mr. BDC has these same issues with the technical information that I publish (I think). I write for a technical, experienced crowd that is interested in fancy canyoneering 'tricks' - but are these presented with enough context to keep 'experienced outdoorsman' away from trying the tricks without sufficient technical context to understand when and how these tricks work? He has a good point.

Tom

Aha, this is interesting. I don't have a lot of experience in canyons, but some experience in rock climbing, scrambling, mountaineering. You could say I'm kind of an "experienced outdoorsman."

Descriptions in the guide books or write-ups I have read have sometimes terrified me. I will read about a tricky step, or some class 3, and get kind of worried. Heck, I was worried about going through Buckskin Gulch solo, for goodness sakes. I am not big on exposure, and am very cautious about getting into a situation where things get a little technical and/or exposed. Especially since I very frequently do things on my own.

Example: A couple of years ago, I hiked the lower part of Coyote Gulch. I paid great heed to the description in SA's Canyoneering 3 that called the "Crack in the Wall" exit class 3+. I worried about exiting up it on my own - there wasn't much in the way of a description, but I've done some very gnarly class 3 scrambles before, around here (home.) Well, I got to the spot, climbed up a couple of short steps, and started looking for the class 3+, but there was nothing but flat desert to be seen. Apparently, I'd finished it. Huh? I also found the description of Peekaboo/Spooky, at class 4+, and Egypt 3, with 5.0 climbing, to be a little overwrought.

The thing is, it's a tough line to walk. If you downplay the difficulties, you're not doing anyone any favours. But if you overstate them, then, like the boy who cried wolf, people start to take beta descriptions lightly.

The trick is to take everything you read with a grain of salt. Until you have done a few trips that you've read about, and compared your experience with what the author wrote, you have very little to go by.

In my local mountains, there is a great guidebook called "Scrambles in South West British Columbia" by Matt Gunn. I've done lots of the trips that he has written up, and have a pretty good feel for what he means when he says "The rock here is horribly loose and the scrambling is exposed and difficult", or a "moderately exposed blocky crux".

When I read about tricky downclimbs in canyons, I am leery and tend to overestimate the difficulties. Long, overhanging, or awkward rappels don't make me uncomfortable (except for the pucker factor on the first step - there's a lot of innate survival instinct to suppress), so I don't stress out over those. Not that I take them lightly, but I know that they do not exceed my abilities.


By the way, my use of the word "overwrought" earlier reminds me - that's what this seems, in my opinion:

Welcome to the big leagues.

The standards are different.

Tom, we get it. But you keep on bludgeoning. Or condescending. Or something. Yes, I know you're the emperor, and you know I have a huge amount of respect, but still, will there be any toning down eventually? Because a bit of superiority, a smidgen of big dog dominance, a finely crafted lecture is fine in measured doses. But I know that if I were on the receiving end of it in public (hey, maybe I am in private; maybe we all are) I'd be pretty sick of it.

Deferentially,
Kev