NEWS FLASH- Man Stuck in Nutty Putty Cave

[jman]

This came from a rescuer from the site:



"The press coverage has been very accurate, especially considering that they could not see really any of what was going on. I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being "free". I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up. The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.

While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us."

wow, thanks for sharing. What's the link referenced to? I searched Nutty Putty, but didn't see it.

I have three buddies working for UC SAR and they said similar things - it just resulted in John was head down for to long and was too tired after they re-rigged the anchors. "then its like trying to pull a cruise-ship with a rope attached to your hair" said of my friends working for SAR.

So pulling him out isn't a option anymore, and I concur with denalguide, just use a jackhammer or some sort of excavaction tool and get him out of there.

[caverdan]

..

[DOSS]

Mining techniques would have to be used which would highly modify the cave and be rather expensive and time consuming. Not that I'm for leaving him in there, but I highly respect the decision and wishes of the family. IMHO...their chioce should be honered.

I respectfully disagree.. why is it the choice of 1 family and the sheriffs office to close a cave (something that is not their personal property)...

also if I understand you correctly a permanently closed cave is better than a partially damaged cave that is still open to the community is I have to totally disagree with this.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Mining techniques would have to be used which would highly modify the cave and be rather expensive and time consuming. Not that I'm for leaving him in there, but I highly respect the decision and wishes of the family. IMHO...their chioce should be honered.

I respectfully disagree.. why is it the choice of 1 family and the sheriffs office to close a cave (something that is not their personal property)...

also if I understand you correctly a permanently closed cave is better than a partially damaged cave that is still open to the community is I have to totally disagree with this.

i think he is referring to the families wish to keep him in the cave. it is not their choice on whether it gets shut down. nor is it the choice of the utah county sheriff. the decision lies with SITLA, who owns the land, and they have been looking for reasons to shut it down for some time. it all has to do with liability issues.

[DOSS]

Mining techniques would have to be used which would highly modify the cave and be rather expensive and time consuming. Not that I'm for leaving him in there, but I highly respect the decision and wishes of the family. IMHO...their chioce should be honered.

I respectfully disagree.. why is it the choice of 1 family and the sheriffs office to close a cave (something that is not their personal property)...

also if I understand you correctly a permanently closed cave is better than a partially damaged cave that is still open to the community is I have to totally disagree with this.

i think he is referring to the families wish to keep him in the cave. it is not their choice on whether it gets shut down. nor is it the choice of the utah county sheriff. the decision lies with SITLA, who owns the land, and they have been looking for reasons to shut it down for some time. it all has to do with liability issues.

I can see that and know SITLA has been looking for reasons.. I don't think it should even be a choice for the family to say leave him down there. Just my opinion though.

[Redpb]

Such a tragic event. I would have collapsed mentally long before my body gave out.
Warm, humid, and dark environment. Everything needed to speed up the decomposition (as grotesque as that sounds). Shut it down for a year, if that long is even needed, recover the bones and let the family have a proper burial.

[jman]

I think people are getting the closed idea of Nutty Putty a little twisted. It isn't because someone died in there, compared to Angel's Landing, its because they can't recover his body. Heck, if for 20+ hours they were rescuing him and was only moved a little over 8feet, and then he slid back in 2 more feet when the anchor failed, that's saying its pretty difficult in removing the body.

I do agree that closing the cave is NOT the best option - but when they can't remove the body, then it changes the game.

Example: Crandall Mine. I was just thinking about them when I heard about John dying in the cave and wondered, did they reopen the mine? No. Unfortunately, the great expense of digging them out was too much for the workers, etc. Thus, making it a tomb, or memorial. Same is with this cave.

Although, I do believe that everyone should have a proper burial and that no-expense should be disgarded in retrieving them, except in extreme circumstances. IE Mount Everest and other such extreme mountains. I've heard rumors that Mt. Everest has 200+ bodies on the mountain, and Mt. Rainier as over 150+ bodies. etc. If it's going to be too taxing and the rescuers lifes are endanger, than I'm sorry, there's not a whole lot you can do then, unless you do it yourself I suppose.

I'm not sure if the rescuer's lifes are in endanger in this cave but...all I know from my friends with UC SAR is that it's almost a oneway ticket where he is at and the situation he got himself into. They needed John to assist them (which he did, until the anchor gave way, and they assume after the anchor blew - he physically and mentally gave up (which is when the anchor blew out they hudled together and came up with a new plan and when they got back to John they didn't get any response out of him and assumed he was dead until they could get someone to confirm he was)), otherwise it is nearly impossible to move him without mining tools. That's what they tell me.

[Iceaxe]

The major problem is you have fat old men with bad comb overs, who think a trip to Disneyland is a wild weekend, that are sitting in a comfy office making decisions that effect our outdoor recreation....

Just wait a few weeks and you can recover the body.... not to be morbid or anything but.... the body will bloat and then it will shrink.. and when I say shrink I mean it will shrink a large amount. At that time it should be rather easy to drag out.

Crandall Mine was a different matter.... the safety of the rescue crew was the problem. That should not be a major issue inside Nutty Putty.

And this is also not about getting sued

[Deathcricket]

Just wait a few weeks and you can recover the body.... not to be morbid or anything but.... the body will bloat and then it will shrink.. and when I say shrink I mean it will shrink a large amount. At that time it should be rather easy to drag out.

See I was thinking once the body shrinks it would be soft and fall into pieces. Although I guess multiple pieces would be easier to retrieve anyways. Without seeing it, really hard to understand... But it seems to me that once the guy was dead and breaking bones (and being gentle) was no longer paramount. Hooking a rope to both legs, pulling with excessive force, and maybe a couple 2x4's for leverage would get anything out? I recall them saying there was a corner where his rib bones were getting lodged.

Regardless, really bad decision to close the cave and spoil it for others. I never got a chance to check that one out! I wonder how many people went into that cave and back out without injury. But I bet it was thousands over the years.

[Ryebrye]

So... what's the holdup to just sealing off the one area he is in and putting a small note like "here lies a guy who almost f**cked it all up for the rest of you?"

I'm going to go up to timp cave and commit hari kari with a stelagtite and leave a note asking that it be my final resting place. Think they would honor that?

I never had any desire to do the nutty putty caves, and likely never will. Still, the thought of one jackass ruining it for everyone really pisses me off.

[mrabe1979]

If you get a chance send a short message of your thoughts and you name to.

savenuttyputtycave@gmail.com

[Iceaxe]

Message sent... here is mine if others need some ideas to get them started.

I'm strongly against sealing the cave, I can understand sealing the finger John Jones is trapped in if body recovery is not possible, but sealing the entire cave is a crime. Caves are a natural treasure and should not be destroyed.

Sealing Nutty Putty Cave makes about as much sense as filling in the Grand Canyon because rafters keep drowning. The outdoors are a dangerous and untamed place, that is a part of the appeal.

Please do not seal or destroy Nutty Putty Cave.

Shane Burrows
Climb Utah - Canyoneering & Mountaineering
http://Climb-Utah.com

[Ryebrye]

When you send the email, it autoreplies to you with this message encouraging you to place a phone call.

I've been told that PHONE CALLS are the most important way to get
through. I hate calling too, but I did it today, and I'll do again
tomorrow, and the next day, until the cave is not sealed.

Utah Trust Lands
Main Office
675 East 500 South, Suite 500
Salt Lake City, UT 84102
801-538-5100
801-355-0922 fax Fifth Floor
801-328-9452 fax Development

One of the best quotes I read about this topic was someone asking "When a person drowns in a lake and they can't recover the body, should they close down the lake permanently?"

[Iceaxe]

I deal with land managers occationally and letters (not emails) are usally the best. The reason is this provides a hardcopy for all to see.

My letter will go out in today's mail.

thanks for providing the info.

[Don]

I'm not really a caver. I've been in Nutty Putty and did not really enjoy myself but I agree that it should not be cemented shut due to this one, tragic, incident. I copied and edited Shane's letter to suit me and I'll even make a phone call or two.

My letter:

I am writing to inform you that I am strongly against sealing the
Nutty Putty cave, I can understand sealing the finger John Jones is
trapped in if body recovery is not possible. I would even be willing
to make a modest financial contribution or vollunteer my time toward
this end. Caves are a natural treasure and should be protected rather
than destroyed.

Sealing the entire cave makes about as much sense as closing Lake
Powell when a boater is killed or closing Mount Everest when a
mountaineer is killed. The outdoors are a dangerous and untamed place,
that is a part of the appeal.

In the end, we all share the same fate; you cannot protect anyone well
enough to prevent death. Although with enough preventative measures in
place you may be able to prevent people from living life.

Please do not seal or destroy Nutty Putty Cave.

[Scott P]

Still, the thought of one jackass ruining it for everyone really pisses me off.

So now the guy that got stuck is a jackass?

[mrabe1979]

Well.. Jackass is way to harsh and out of line. But you have to wonder what a man with a 14 month old child and a pregnant wife is doing putting himself in that type of situation.

[Sombeech]

The thought of any danger in this cave has never occurred to many who have wanted to go there.

It's the most popular cave in the state, Boy Scouts are hitting it all the time. I've wanted to do this cave, and had absolutely no knowledge of any danger. I'm sure he had the same frame of mind.

[DiscGo]

I have nothing against this guy and I have spent a lot of time thinking about him recently. I wish very badly that he wouldn't have died. It is my understanding however that it was more his own bad judgment that led to his death.

He got stuck and couldn't go left, right, or back but could go forward. So he kept wedging himself farther in because it gave him more hope of being saved. Truth be told if I were in the save situation I would do the same thing. It makes sense that you think you are making progress, so you keep going (not believing you may die if you choose incorrectly) but in the end if he had just waited for help when he first got stuck, he most likely would have lived.

Whether or not it was bad judgment, or just a bad luck of the draw the cave is not innately dangerous. I have been to the Nutty Putty cave a ton growing up and aside from running out of gas out there one time, I have never had any problems. I am starting to sound like a broken record here, but I no more believe that the cave should be sealed over this death, than I believe mountains should be destroyed or dismantled over the death of a hiker.

The cave is a treasure and means a lot to a lot of people. Some people don't get the attraction to the Nutty Putty but growing up here, that was my "cave". Growing up in Provo I did a lot of the same stuff over and over. When I wanted to go for a hike, I'd hike the Y (I have hiked the Y over a hundred times), if I wanted to go to a hot spring, I 'd go to Fifth Water Hotsprings \ the "Hot Pots" and when I wanted to go to a cave I'd go to Nutty Putty cave. I'm really sad that I won't get to share the cave with my boy because it is something that has meant a lot to me growing up and I love the idea of my kids playing where I played (it is part of the reason I want to raise my family in Utah).

[denaliguide]

But you have to wonder what a man with a 14 month old child and a pregnant wife is doing putting himself in that type of situation.

what? to think you can't have some type of recreationial risk in your life after you have gotten married and have kids is absolute bullsh*t.

show of hands here. who is married with kids, and hesitate to go canyoneering, caving, rock or ice climbing, backcountry skiing, expedition mountaineering, etc., because they are worried about dying doing that activity.

what aboiut about the parents who leave the kiddies at gram's and fly off on vacation. if the plane goes down, killing both parents, the kids are left orphaned. were they irresponsible for flying on the same plane?

odds are probably higher that you would die in your car on the drive to your adventure.