A Zion Permit System Experience

[Mike C.]

As I did earlier this year, I recently took a group of hikers/canyoneers to Zion as a week event for the Orange County Hiking Club http://www.oc-hiking.com/ Our group size was around 45 people and I, as did two others, obtained Subway permit for a total of 30 people on the same day (9/27). We obtained parking stickers for all 10 vehicles involved, had our permits in hand while in route, and staggered our starting time. Once at the Subway several of us commingled with others on different permits. Two rangers came down from the top and asked to see our permits and then told us we were not allowed to be affiliated even though we had separate permits. I knew we shouldn

[Deathcricket]

Sorry about your experience. Wished you had checked here first, we could have told ya. But how do you ask questions for info you didn't know you needed? hehe.


1. I went to bogleyfest but not the others you mentioned. We follow the rules. So if it says 12 max per permit, we have a sign up and the first 12 go. The rest don't. We don't bring a 2nd group in to accomodate more. There are plenty of other canyons though without these restrictions and we do bring more when these restrictions dont exist.
2.Yes
3. Probably no. I think they have rules and don't break them.
4. No idea, i would refuse also.
5. It's a stupid rule. 30 people is 30 people. but my guess is that when you take a large group, you take people into a dangerous area that they have no business going into. this causes injuries and expensive rescues.
6. Yes, no affiliation means no affiliation.
7. Yes and no. Yes if you can't obey the rules, you'll get fined and it will ruin your trip. No because there are plenty of way to still have fun. instead fo taking 3 huge groups into one place. Take one group each a different place. Then the next day, switch. Easy. But if the magic "fun button" is only achieved by taking a group of 30 and not a group of 12. Find another canyon I think.
8. I'm sure the emperor will chime in and give you great advice on that. he knows exactly where the effective places are to complain and we as a group try to have a single voice against this crappy system. No luck yet, but we keep trying!
9. good luck, very interested to know if he gets anywhere. If he needs any resources. There is pretty much unanimous hate here about the problems you faced and I'm sure he could get a lot of help.
10. When you went through the canyon do you see a single speck of litter, a single piece of grafitti, or a single name carved in a tree? The system does work, it just sucks. :)

[Felicia]

Dang!

I know that you made your initial plan public as I read it in several places a couple of months back.- I read may forums, groups, ocregister, and your website.

The Park, the permit system, the internet, almost all beta and the back country desk all address the limit aggressively - thus I did not comment on your plans.

How do you think your group of 30 missed all the opportunities for the advisement?

#4 - Your social security number is for collection purposes - garnish your tax refund.

I will let others answer the rest of your questions.

Sorry for not chiming in - I will for the next group.

[goofball]

Re. 10

[Cirrus2000]

While I do have a problem with some of the permit system issues, I don't have a problem with the prohibition on large groups. A) I don't want to run into them, B) I don't want them monopolizing the available spots, and C) the impact issue.

How did you manage to check the box on the permit, and not read what it said? These things are legal documents, they are there to define rights and responsibilities on your part, and on the park's part. It is a legal contract. You are taking part in an activity where lives are on the line (even in the Subway.) I would think you'd be aware of the stipulations.

Unless of course, you're just playing dumb after the fact. "Huh? It says what?" Worth a try, I guess, if you're just trying to circumvent the rules.

Sorry for going off on you, but seriously...

In regards to number 7, it's like DC says - if you can't live within the rules, by all means take your business elsewhere. Be prepared for an area with less "amenities" along with less regulations. I'm sure some members of your group will be very satisfied with that, and some won't - bound to be a variety of opinions within a group that size.

[nonot]

While I hate to run into big (usually obnoxious) groups in the wilderness, I don't see why you couldn't have broken up your huge group into 3 separate large groups and do 3 separate trips. 10 do Pine Creek, 10 do Behunin, 10 do subway, etc. This is allowed by the permit system and you'll all meet up for BBQ by the end of the day anyway.

[Mike C.]

I guess I'll have to eat crow on this rant. Next time I'll be more thoughtful of your comments.

Mike C.

[jman]

granted it would be awesome to have 50 of your friends/work/group/etc. do the Subway together, unfortunately it sucks because it won't work legally. Nonot has a good solution.

OR...................

do a area where there is no permits.

Moab, San Rafael, Lake Powell,

granted...it would be QUITE different having 50 do the leprechaun canyons. haha. But then again, if Arches saw 50+ doing Dragonfly at the sametime, things could get interesting with that.

But then again...it is Zion. enough said with that one word alone.

[Don]

On the other hand; If there are permits for 3 groups of 10 people each, a total of 30 people in a given canyon on a given day, and as long as those groups stagger their start times and don't mingle on the trail what's the difference between 3 groups of 10 strangers and 3 groups of 10 who all know each other?

[Iceaxe]

And in the better late than never department......

The Zion Park "group affiliation" is a poorly written rule that could be beaten in court.... what group exactly are they talking about? Democrats? Republicans? Humans? Those who paid to enter the park? Those who had coffee for breakfast?

That being said, I prefer that large groups be forced to break into smaller groups. Meeting a herd of 30 (or 10) in the slot is not a pleasant experience.

At Bogley fests we break into smaller groups and stagger the canyons over different days.... example: one group does Subway, while anther does Pine Creek and the next day we flip-flop canyons. Bogley fests in Zion usually have a numbers limit (30 the last time I went) so it's not difficult to avoid each other. The biggest headache to arranging a Bogley fest in Zion has always been permits and keeping everything legal.

All contact and bitching about the permit system should go straight to the Park Superintendent, why waste time with the peons? I've had several experiences with the peons sugar coating my bitch before passing it to the Super so the peons don't look bad. If you are going to bitch you might as well start at the top and let the crap roll down hill.

Anyhoo.... that's my 2 cents...