Ethical Question (I Need Some Advice)

[asdf]

Hey Dan, remind me to remove you as a reference from my resume.

[devo_stevo]

Hey Dan, remind me to remove you as a reference from my resume.

What? You didn't get the email that he sent you? I got one.

[Rev. Coyote]

Dan;

This guy needs to hear an honest assessment. Do not serve as a reference, and whatever you tell him, do so verbally. Nothing in writing.

If you care about this guy, tell him what you really think. Otherwise he has no chance of evolving.

If you don't care a whit about this guy, do not communicate with him. At all.

Hope this helps.

[Iceaxe]

If you care about this guy, tell him what you really think. Otherwise he has no chance of evolving.

Isn't that what a wife is for???

If you fix this guy now you are depriving some lucky woman of a nice husband project.

[Deathcricket]

*sigh* Probably going to sound like an ass, but here goes.

Integrity is completely awesome and being honest with people is great too. If you were going to lose sleep over this and telling a lie totally bothers you, then I commend you on your decision. But let's ananlyze some facts.

1. This guy is going to be bouncing around to a lot of companies if he sucks as bad as you say he does.
2. just because he absolutely sucked at your job doesn't mean he hasn't matured and gotten a fire under him after his last job.
3. If you did give him a positive reference he will be your ally for life.
4. You lose absolutely nothing by giving him a positive reference (besides your high values) and you gain everything.
5. If you ever need a job fast, who is going to be the guy you'd go to? This guy who has bounced from job to job for the last 3 years or some good worker who found a place and sticks there. It's a trick question, when you need a job you go to everyone you know, even people you don't care for. If you helped him in his time of need, unless he is absolute filth he will do the same for you.
6. You never pass up an opportunity for someone to owe you a favor in business. Even people you don't care for.

I would suggest it's your pride interfereing with your decision. Your self esteem is saying " you can't say that, that guy was an idiot". Don't have pride man, this is a big game, there are winners and losers. You won, you're a good worker, valuable to the company, and take pride in your work. Be happy with that. He's a loser and got fired (masked as a layoff). But don't let your pride get in the way and say "You're too cool to vouch for that guy". Be friends with everyone, even the unfriendable. There is a chance it will pay off later and you lose absolutely nothing at all.

However, if he was trying to get a job at your place and you did that then you absolutely did the right thing. Him performing bad is going to look bad on you. But him going to work somewhere else? Who cares, and now he owes you.

But I don't place that integrity above my other needs like getting a better job, getting a new job quick after a layoff, or even having a bigger network of social contacts. I'm not saying I would have been friends with the guy, but I would not have hesitated to give him a posityive reference. I think everyone needs to have criteria based for such decisions and make logical ones based off that. I can also see being LDS and honesty being so important how you would make a decision like you did. Just make sure you're doing it for your values and not because of pride or some other silly emotional response. You just lost a possible ally for nothing but 5 mins of your time and general questions.

In the interest of keeping this short, I'll be super brief. I knew a guy like this, and he approached me about a year after I got him a job by giving a positive reference. He said "hey man they are hiring at my place, I get a $2500 bonus if I can get you in". I went to interview at the company and was hired. Then I outperformed him as his peer. They ended up letting him go a year later (in the form of layoff) cause "times were tough" back in 1999. Imagine my surprise when 2 months later they let me do his job and gave me a substantial increase in salary and huge bonus. LOL. If I had wrote the guy off and refused to help him, I would have never gotten ahead. He was very difficult to be around, annoying to the max. Decent worker but really bad people skills. But I maintened a profession relationship with him and it paid off really well.

Just my 2 cents. I hate arguing with you man. Normally we see eye to eye on everything so it hurt to tell you this. :)

[DiscGo]

Just make sure you're doing it for your values and not because of pride or some other silly emotional response.

I have plenty of friends who are "losers" in the eyes of others that I know to be awesome and would recommend. I really do not have that many "real" friends and am very loyal to those I consider my friends. It isn't that I am too good for him or anyone else for that matter. It is that I would feel worse about myself for giving him a good recommendation and I would feel equally bad about lying to him. My Dad has critized me several times for not being "smarter" at work by staying out of work politics or whatever, but in the end I am sort of an idealist and would rather lose my job, or a reference than lose integrity or not follow what I believe to be right. http://tiny.cc/Glass687

I hate arguing with you man. Normally we see eye to eye on everything so it hurt to tell you this. :)

Thank you for sharing your whole message. I know it sucks sometimes to post a message in which you can be portrayed as a jerk (I'm not saying you are a jerk or anything, just that you really went against the grain here :) ) and I appreciate you taking the time. Your opinion is always among those most important to me D.C.


I had struggled with what to do about this for a couple of days and in the end I decided that one of the great perks about Bogley is jut the honesty. It seems like almost every time that a serious question is asked on this site, you will receive a couple of comments saying that question is inappropriate for an outdoor forum :) and then you get a bunch of honest answers from a variety of people from a variety of backgrounds. This really was not the first time that Bogley\UUtah helped me tune my moral compass and as always I am grateful for the feedback. Thank you everybody.

[Cirrus2000]

*sigh* Probably going to sound like an ass, but here goes.

Man, we don't always (often?) see eye to eye, but I like you, DC, I do. But this? Dayum, this seems cold, selfish, unethical and generally ugly. But I guess that's the world today.

Really, though?

[Iceaxe]

Hmmmmm.... interesting perspective DC.....

So it's more of a question of who do you owe your allegiance to? a friend? a company? neither? both?

I have to say.... I'm probably giving a positive recommend to a good friend who is a poor employee if nameless big business who I owe nothing to comes calling.... probably have to make such a choice on a specific case by case bases.

Anyhoo..... interesting points to ponder....

[Jaxx]

I'm putting DC on my reference list! I just applied for a job that I am not qualified for in St. George. Hopefully I get it. I didn't get a chance to put you as a reference.

[cmpbiker]

I learned years ago in big corporate managers school that you should never give a character reference or comment on the performance of an employee either terminated or still employed. Unless you have a completely bulletproof documentation chain you can be sued if someone was dickish enough to want to do such a thing.

I did violate this on one occasion. I had a rep working for me that never performed, didn't follow any corrective actions, hardly showed up and I suspected he was watch porn all day in a remote office. When I terminated him he continued a storm of excuse and denial, then called me a racist (we are both white anglo) and proceeded to threaten me physically finally swerving at me while pulling out of the parking lot after I escorted him out of the office. The worst employee incident of 15 years on management. A month later I get a call from a HR director because I am listed as a reference. I am taken back a bit and just do the he worked here from here to there thing and she says "no no he listed you as a personal reference, what can you tell me?" I just snapped and laid out everything. I couldn't believe someone would be so dense.

[uintahiker]

I need some help guys. I just got downsized at my job and am looking for a new one. I had a great reference just turn me down (after he had agreed to be my reference), so now I'm looking for someone to vouch for me.

Anybody? Anybody?







Just messin' with you Discgo!

[DiscGo]

I need some help guys. I just got downsized at my job and am looking for a new one. I had a great reference just turn me down (after he had agreed to be my reference), so now I'm looking for someone to vouch for me.

You guys are too funny.

[Deathcricket]

It isn't that I am too good for him or anyone else for that matter. It is that I would feel worse about myself for giving him a good recommendation and I would feel equally bad about lying to him. My Dad has critized me several times for not being "smarter" at work by staying out of work politics or whatever, but in the end I am sort of an idealist and would rather lose my job, or a reference than lose integrity or not follow what I believe to be right. http://tiny.cc/Glass687

Yeah I wasn't really suggesting you think you're better than him. But let's face it, you are better than him in every way that is measurable. I'm just saying I think you should always make a decision based on factors that are important to you. And I think the 2 factors are having an ally and telling a lie. You tell the truth, you lose an ally, you tell a lie, you gain an ally. My moral compass is obviously much further down the road than yours. in fact it's probably in another state entirely, haha. but just make sure it's a logic decision and not an emotional one. Maybe you're not willing to vouch for him out of anger? He obviously slacked off and didnt come close to pulling his weight around the office. I personally hate people like that and don't want to see them succeed. They don't deserve it IMO. I want them to fail. But i don't let it influence my decisions or thought process. Again, I'm not saying this is how you are, I'm just saying be honest with yourself and the solution will present itself I think.

Man, we don't always (often?) see eye to eye, but I like you, DC, I do. But this? Dayum, this seems cold, selfish, unethical and generally ugly. But I guess that's the world today.

Really, though?

Hehe yeah bro. Maybe I'm a sociopath or something. But when I read this I immediately thought "what's in it for me?" and then "what are the consequences for each action?" Option A: I lose a future ally, but I feel better about myself and my integrity. Option B: I lose a possible future job offer but I feel better about my integrity. I'll take option A everyday because my main loyalty is to myself. And to me the gains outweigh the penalties. Sick eh? My line (I won't cross) seems to be I won't sabatage someone else at my current job (to get ahead) though. I know in a way I'm sabotaging this guys future employer, but really I'm being forced to either sabotage him or his employer. I have to pick one right? Either he gets screwed by not getting my help or the employer gets screwed by having a false reference. Someone is going to lose in this scenario. So what value do I place and each criteria?

So it's more of a question of who do you owe your allegiance to? a friend? a company? neither? both?

Almost, my allegiance is always to myself. I think even Discgo's allegiance is to himself. Even though he is making a completely different decision than I would. Basically in this decision he's not going to be able to live with himself for breaking his integrity. He assigns a higher value to integrity than getting "ahead" in life. So he will be more likely to have fewer allies, but they will be more fiercely loyal to him. I will have more allies, but they will be less loyal to me. For instance, in my last example. The guy telling me about the job opportunity was really more interested in getting the $2500 dollar bonus than helping me out. Where as in DiscGo's case they would be more interested in helping him out than monetary gain. I think it's all in how you relate to people and how you build relationships with them. I have a very clear separation of friends and work associates. I bet DiscGo probably has more gray in there. Where he blurs the line between work associates and friends. Some are probably both.

I'm putting DC on my reference list! I just applied for a job that I am not qualified for in St. George. Hopefully I get it. I didn't get a chance to put you as a reference.

There is an unwritten rule we should mention before continuing: "Any guy who can carry an 80 lb backpack through Englestead automatically gets free job references from everyone in the group".

[Jaxx]

There is an unwritten rule we should mention before continuing: "Any guy who can carry an 80 lb backpack through Englestead automatically gets free job references from everyone in the group".

I don't know about 80 lbs. It sure was heavy when the rope got wet through orderville/the narrows.
Actually keep spreading the exaggerated weight, it makes me feel better about myself

[DiscGo]

I think even Discgo's allegiance is to himself.... Basically in this decision he's not going to be able to live with himself for breaking his integrity. He assigns a higher value to integrity than getting "ahead" in life.

Interesting. I had not thought of it that way but I can see what you are saying.


I found your whole last response very intelligent and much less heartless than your original :). One of my strengths is generally the ability to view things objectively and your last response really quite insightful.

[Deeps]

Almost, my allegiance is always to myself. I think even Discgo's allegiance is to himself. Even though he is making a completely different decision than I would. Basically in this decision he's not going to be able to live with himself for breaking his integrity. He assigns a higher value to integrity than getting "ahead" in life. So he will be more likely to have fewer allies, but they will be more fiercely loyal to him. I will have more allies, but they will be less loyal to me. For instance, in my last example. The guy telling me about the job opportunity was really more interested in getting the $2500 dollar bonus than helping me out. Where as in DiscGo's case they would be more interested in helping him out than monetary gain. I think it's all in how you relate to people and how you build relationships with them. I have a very clear separation of friends and work associates. I bet DiscGo probably has more gray in there. Where he blurs the line between work associates and friends. Some are probably both.

This is some of the most fantastic stuff I've read on the internet. Ever. I rarely see that kind of clarity and self awareness in posts or people. And it's why I like you so much.

Integrity doesn't mean you always do the "right" thing. At least according to Webster's. Integrity is synonymous with honesty, but it isn't the same thing. It means you do what you say, and you're true to yourself or whatever code you live by.

DiscGo has been reading scriptures, Deathcricket has been reading Machiavelli. Or channeling him anyway.

Both of you are congruent in your words and your actions. That's integrity.

Accountability is when you're out of integrity either intentionally or unintentionally. True accountability assumes we are all equals. If I feel superior, I assume the right to take from and con others. If I feel inferior I may feel I lack the right to stand as their peer and demand integrity. Dan emailing the man brought his words and actions back into alignment.

In old school D&D, DiscGo is Lawful Good and Deathcricket is Chaotic Neutral. I'm more Chaotic Good. That should explain everything.

[DiscGo]

In old school D&D, DiscGo is Lawful Good and Deathcricket is Chaotic Neutral. I'm more Chaotic Good. That should explain everything.

That is the best thing I have read on the internet :) That was awesome.


Seriously though this has been a very interesting discussion.

[Cirrus2000]

I know in a way I'm sabotaging this guys future employer, but really I'm being forced to either sabotage him or his employer. I have to pick one right? Either he gets screwed by not getting my help or the employer gets screwed by having a false reference. Someone is going to lose in this scenario.

(emphasis mine)

I think he gets screwed by his poor past performance, not by my action (or inaction). I guess when it comes down to it, it's not all about "what's in it for me?"

Of course, that's probably why I'm still working shift work, and scrimping and saving to go on vacation a couple times a year. To Utah, naturally.

I found your whole last response very intelligent and much less heartless than your original :).

Agreed. Still heartless, but much less so...

In old school D&D, DiscGo is Lawful Good and Deathcricket is Chaotic Neutral. I'm more Chaotic Good. That should explain everything.

Huh?

OK, just Wikied this geek-speak, and I like it. When Malcolm Reynolds was listed as an example of Chaotic Good, I couldn't help but give a little cheer.

[PunchKing]

This is among the most lame things I have ever read on the internets. I have no idea why I read this whole thread, probably because I am the worthless employee being discussed.

1. Why would you go to the internet for advice, especially on moral values or ethics questions?
2. The internet is for porn!
3. I have nothing useful to add to this discussion.

For your viewing pleasure http://thisiswhyyourefat.com/

[Deathcricket]

In old school D&D, DiscGo is Lawful Good and Deathcricket is Chaotic Neutral. I'm more Chaotic Good. That should explain everything.

You compliment me and then you throw these pearls of wisdom out there for everyone to see? That's like you congratulating me on a 1st base hit, while you walk up and hit a grand slam! This is really the heart of the matter and "hitting the nail on the head" so to speak. No one could have said it any better really. *High five!*

I think he gets screwed by his poor past performance, not by my action (or inaction). I guess when it comes down to it, it's not all about "what's in it for me?"

Another instance where our line of thinking is totally different. I don't believe in Karma or cosmic forces dealing out punishments or rewards. I hold people accountable for their actions or inactions. DiscGo clearly admitted he would vouch for this guy at a future date (thinking he would never really have to) and is now being held accountable for that. If he had told the guy to "F off" when he should have, this situation would never have arose. But he wanted to be a decent guy, and figured it would not come back so why not tell the guy a lie and spare his feelings? So the root cause of the situation is DiscGo not being honest in the first place and saying he would vouch when he clearly had no intention of doing so. The guys poor performance has no factor in this part of the equation. DiscGo simply had to decide whether to lie again or not. The consequences of this action are going to result in "someone" getting screwed. Agreed??

Again not picking on DiscGo, I make promises all the time I have intention of keeping. I tell the beggar I have no cash on me when clearly I do. We are all guilty of lies when it comes down to it. Some more than others. but like Deeps was saying, we have to be true to our own moral compass and what our value system is. The first breach was made by DiscGo and he repaired the breach by then coming clean and once again being honest (major kuddos BTW to him for doing that). But HIM making that promise in the first place was where he compromised his values and created the situation.

DiscGo: And I really have to stress I'm not picking on you man. I keep re-reading this and am probably sounding like more of an ass than I intend to, lol. I have the utmost respect for a person who can re-evaluate his stances and make a logical decision based on criteria and not emotions. That's one of the best ways to grow I think. I also have to admire you willing to bring this up in a public forum and discuss things. I actually enjoy it and find it very interesting also. Next time someone undesirable asks you for a reference, I bet you'll be quick to politely decline without hurting their feelings.