Ethical Question (I Need Some Advice)

[DiscGo]

My company hired a horrible employee about a year ago. I have honestly never (ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, etc.) seen a worse employee than this guy. He was fired in March (after he had ran away a couple of our customers) but the company was concerned about a law suit, so instead of explaining everything he did wrong they blamed his dismissal on downsizing. This former co-worker asked me a couple of weeks ago if he could list me as a job reference for him. I didn't want to explain how low I thought of him as an employee, and figuring that most companies don't call their references, I agreed. Then a couple of days ago the company called me for a reference about him. It went to my voicemail and they asked me to call them back. That guy called me yesterday but I was busy and unable to answer the call, so he left me a voicemail asking me to call that company.


If I call that company I would feel obligated to be honest and explain what a horrible employee and co-worker he was (I honestly have thought long and hard about it and have nothing positive to say about him as an employee), but at the same time I would feel guilty for letting someone down who apparently believes they can rely on me.

The best I can come up with is to tell him how busy I was this last week if he asks why I didn't call the company back. In retrospect I should have told him "no" to being a reference but I can't imagine anyone refusing to be a reference for anyone they liked or really respected at all, and I certainly did not want to have a lengthy conversation with a guy who was fired and did not know it.

Anyone have any advice on how to handle this situation?

[DOSS]

My company hired a horrible employee about a year ago. I have honestly never (ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, etc.) seen a worse employee than this guy. He was fired in March (after he had ran away a couple of our customers) but the company was concerned about a law suit, so instead of explaining everything he did wrong they blamed his dismissal on downsizing. This former co-worker asked me a couple of weeks ago if he could list me as a job reference for him. I didn't want to explain how low I thought of him as an employee, and figuring that most companies don't call their references, I agreed. Then a couple of days ago the company called me for a reference about him. It went to my voicemail and they asked me to call them back. That guy called me yesterday but I was busy and unable to answer the call, so he left me a voicemail asking me to call that company.


If I call that company I would feel obligated to be honest and explain what a horrible employee and co-worker he was (I honestly have thought long and hard about it and have nothing positive to say about him as an employee), but at the same time I would feel guilty for letting someone down who apparently believes they can rely on me.

The best I can come up with is to tell him how busy I was this last week if he asks why I didn't call the company back. In retrospect I should have told him "no" to being a reference but I can't imagine anyone refusing to be a reference for anyone they liked or really respected at all, and I certainly did not want to have a lengthy conversation with a guy who was fired and did not know it.

Anyone have any advice on how to handle this situation?

semantics but did you say you would be a positive reference or just a reference? worst case you just ignore they guy and the company and just let it drop or you can be nice to the company and tell them what you really think but they may in the end just figure you are being vindictive over something personal and blow off your negative referral anyhow. In the end I would NOT give a good referral if he sucked at his job that is just passing the buck to another person to spend the 5 minutes of explaining that he sucks as I have told people before this is life not rec sports and not everyone gets a trophy :)

[DiscGo]

Did you say you would be a positive reference or just a reference?

Reference. I was very careful not to say positive :)

As I have told people before this is life not rec sports and not everyone gets a trophy :)

Agreed. That is how I feel too.

[Deeps]

This will sound loaded with snark - and it's not meant that way.

You're out of integrity, whatever you choose to do here. To the man, the prospective company, and yourself. You may even be out of integrity with your own company.

If you can look at it that way, ask yourself how you can get back into integrity with the man.

The bigger lesson is how can you maintain your integrity in the future so you don't end up here again. It's about boundaries, and saying "no". Where else does this show up for you?

Again, no snark intended. You're in a pickle. I get that. Semantics games aren't going to change that. I've been there.

[Jaxx]

Be careful about saying anything negative about the guy. He could come back with a lawsuit that you caused him to lose the job. defamation of character, etc. Back in the day I worked at JCPenney. The managers would say "no comment" to any question that the answer wouldn't be positive if they were listed as references.

I would call the guy back and just say "I can't be a reference for you, sorry." You could add a "biotch!" at the end if you really want to kick him while he is down. If he asks you why just be honest with him. Tell him you couldn't answer the questions in an honest way that would help him get the job. Hopefully down the road you don't have to work with or under him.

[Iceaxe]

I agree with Deeps... you messed up.... the best way out is always the truth. Time to man up and own it. And FWIW, just remember we all screw up occasionally, its how we handle our screw ups that defines us.

As for the worthless employee just tell him to remove you from his resume because you don't make a good reference. That's all you need to say. You don't owe any more explanation than that.....

And a little insider info as an employer..... when I am checking a references I might ask a bunch of questions and chat the guy up if he is talkative.... but the one question I always ask and pay careful attention to the response and semantic's is "Would you hire this person again?" If the answer is anything but an immediate "yes" I move along to the next resume.

[DiscGo]

Where else does this show up for you?

Everything you have said in your post is correct, but I did want to clarify that I am generally not someone who is afraid to say "no". In fact the opposite has been true in the past where I have been the one to say "no" when I didn't need to be and now I just try and tread lightly with people with which I have a hard time getting along.


I do believe that at the end of the day if you do not have your integrity, you have nothing. So I will go email this guy and tell him to remove me from his resume. Thank you guys for the advice.

[cilantro13]

Either don't call them back -- you are under no obligation to call them back, even if you said yes as a reference.

If you do speak to them, may I suggest you confirm that he worked with you and leave it at that. If you give a negative opinion of any sort, you create a potential liability for your current company. (It's worse here in California, but you have to be careful -- how do you even know he isn't collecting evidence to set your current company up for a lawsuit? -- believe it or not, in the legal industry we see all kinds of crap like that going on). I have noticed that bad employees have an uncanny knack for exploiting the system -- perhaps that is why they never develop into good employees -- because there is always a way to make a buck the round about way.

So at the end of the day, you speak with them but give them absolutely no fodder to work with. You say nothing positive about him. You don't create any impressions that could be taken as positive or negative. You simple state that you worked with him and that you know him and then politely decline to answer any additional questions.

[DiscGo]

I just emailed him. Here is what I wrote:
(I changed his name to protect his identity)

Zaxxon,

Sorry I have not gotten back to you. My wife just had a baby this week and I have been at the hospital most of the time with her. I received a voicemail from you about calling that company as a reference. I asked around about reference phone calls (because I myself have never been part of one) and from what I can tell they can be quite lengthy and in depth calls. I wish you the best of luck in everything you do, and want you to succeed but I don't think I'd be a very good reference for you after all and as hard as it is for me to say it, I think you'd probably be best taking me off your resume.

I'm really sorry to be telling you this now and not when you first asked me (I originally thought a reference interview would be more of "can you vouch for these dates of employment", "is he an honest person", etc.). but from what I can tell the interviews can be quite involved and I don't want to be part of an interview in which I couldn't give you the best possible reference. I hope you understand.

Good luck with everything.
Dan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I realize there is chance he will take this personally and I hope he does not. In the end I tried to do what was right by him, that company, & myself.

[Iceaxe]

(I changed his name to protect his identity)

Zaxxon,

Zaxxon..... I don't want to even know what you named your new baby.....

[cilantro13]

Anybody remember the 80's Atari video game Zaxxon? I logged many an hour flying through an industrialized canyon blasting radar dishes and putting fuel in my tank by blasting fuel depots.

They don't make them like that any more.

[stefan]

but the company was concerned about a law suit, so instead of explaining everything he did wrong they blamed his dismissal on downsizing.

out of curiosity, did the company's decision to downplay the reason for the firing at all play a role in how you interacted with this x-employee in determining whether you'd serve as a reference?

This former co-worker asked me a couple of weeks ago if he could list me as a job reference for him. I didn't want to explain how low I thought of him as an employee,

i would say you should feel confident telling him that you are unable to serve as a reference. you should also feel that you don't need to disclose the reasons for not serving as a reference unless you want to. you are not obligated to give him an answer if you turn him down, regardless of how he responds to you. it's a difficult situation, but he's putting you in it.

and figuring that most companies don't call their references, I agreed.

i agree whole-heartedly with the others ... never say you can serve as a reference unless you feel you can.


and your decision to tell him that you don't feel it's appropriate to serve as a reference for him is candid and reasonable.

[DiscGo]

Did the company's decision to downplay the reason for the firing at all play a role in how you interacted with this x-employee in determining whether you'd serve as a reference?

Not at all. I actually second guessed working at my company which would allow him to remain employed there for so long because he was so horrible. He originally asked me if he could put me down as a reference and yes I know there is an implication of "will you be a good reference" but I was trying to slide through a loop hole and just assume I wouldn't be called.




I emailed him (the above email) and he took it really well.



In the end this isn't the biggest thing, but I do feel like integrity is important and I did slide into a position in which I felt very uncomfortable with this situation. I have done what I can to rectify the situation and will tred more carefully going forward.

Thanks again guys.

[DiscGo]

Zaxxon..... I don't want to even know what you named your new baby.....

My wife and I still have not agreed on a name, so my daughter has been alive for close to 36 hours and still has no name.

Zaxxon was a sweet video game :)

[JP]

Honesty from the start. This way you wouldn't be in this pickle. People fear being honest because it may hurt, but being honest is the only way. Leaving gray areas leaves too many doors open. Black, white and honesty for me works best.

[Deeps]

Way to go, sounds like you handled it perfectly.

...and now I just try and tread lightly with people with which I have a hard time getting along..

That's the piece for you to look at when this kind of thing comes up again. Looking forward to meeting you in person eventually.

[mtthwlw]

Honesty from the start. This way you wouldn't be in this pickle. People fear being honest because it may hurt, but being honest is the only way. Leaving gray areas leaves too many doors open. Black, white and honesty for me works best.

I agree, but-- at the same time-- I think all of us have agreed to things like this in the moment and have come to regret the decision later. DiscGo, you did well here. You could have avoided and stalled-- instead you took care of it quickly and honestly.

I think this is the best that all of us can hope to do. Avoid problems with honesty, and fix problems that come up the same way.

The thing I'm really wondering is-- what if he lurks in the Bogley Forum and sees the email you sent? He'd obviously recognize your face... and the letter too. But, naw... It'll never happen. Those of us who read and post here are all 100% honest and super-employees. No deadbeats allowed, right?

[R]

Couple of thoughts on this matter:

1. I sometimes fear that I am that guy and am too big an idiot to know it. (Other times I think I am like Special Olympians when people tell me what a great job I've done.)

2. Was this guy a bad employee because he was an idiot, or because he was an ass? I think it matters. If he's a genuinely well-meaning idiot, there's wiggle room. If he's a jackass who takes three-hour lunches on the clock and hits on the bosses teenage daughter, he has a bad reference coming.

3. Please pat me on the head and reassure me I am not this guy.

[BruteForce]

This is an easy one, with an easy out:

Technically, if you were to ask your HR department, they would indicate that you can only confirm dates of employment and basic responsibilities. They would tell you to not provide specific character or personality references.

With that in mind, you could easily provide that reference information. If that still wasn't comfortable, candor is your next option. Be candid with him (as your email suggested) and you're done.

[DiscGo]

Couple of thoughts on this matter:

1. I sometimes fear that I am that guy and am too big an idiot to know it. (Other times I think I am like Special Olympians when people tell me what a great job I've done.)

I know that feeling. I used to work in a group home and sometimes I felt like I belonged to be in the program instead of working there.

2. Was this guy a bad employee because he was an idiot, or because he was an ass?

He was an idiot and had a horrible work ethic. He is well meaning and good hearted... but an idiot and honestly the worst employee I have ever witnessed at any company at which I have worked. Just awful!

3. Please pat me on the head and reassure me I am not this guy.

Richard- You are the man. You have nothing to worry about. Thanks for your willingness to constantly share your vast wisdom.