Rigging Quiz

[ratagonia]

Am I the only one not out and about on this Labor Day weekend? Well, I did get out today, helping a friend with his group in Engelstead, and then jugging out and carrying the ropes up the hill.

Recently, folks have been reporting stuck ropes on the first rap in The Big E. I found this curious, as I have never had this problem. So, part of this trip was to investigate these reports, and see what was going on. Which leads to this anchor quiz - ie, an opportunity for us all to discuss how one figures out what anchor to use for a particular drop. Yes, it would be easier if we were all there at the head of the drop, ready to rig... so imagine we're all there, working it out...

http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/

Please - what do you think?

What DID you think, last time you were there?

How would you rig this drop?

Tom

[oldno7]

So....
post labor day, bulk webbing sale at CUSA. Slightly used.

[ratagonia]

So....
post labor day, bulk webbing sale at CUSA. Slightly used.

Nah, can't sell anything but drab colors. The boss won't let me...

[canyonguru]

I have never done The big E before but from the pictures and me having to do the split drop with the bolt station (i don't have a 300ft rope) it looks to me like tree A would be the best option. You can extend the anchor quite close to the edge and it looks like a smother edge then tree B would have. It also looks like there is let exsposure while you are rigging the anchor. This would allow less friction in turn making the pull a little smoother, and since i would be pulling only from 90 ft down it wouldn't be as bad.

this is just from what i got from the pictures i may be way wrong but there ya go.

[jiveassmother]

I have rigged off tree A and B and didn't seem to have a problem at all. I didn't have a preference so I just used the one that had webbing on it at the time since the webbing looked good. I do remember the last time I went there was a group in front of us. They got their rope stuck as we were standing at the top. I dropped it down to them. What had happened was they didn't pay attention to separating the two strands as the last one went down and they got a few twists in the strands. The weight of the pull side of the rope pinched the other side against the ground and locked it up. The harder they pulled, the more it pinched the other side into the ground.

[trackrunner]

I've set up at Tree B before with a wrap 2 pull 1 that made for an easy pull.

[ratagonia]

Am I the only one not out and about on this Labor Day weekend? Well, I did get out today, helping a friend with his group in Engelstead, and then jugging out and carrying the ropes up the hill.

Recently, folks have been reporting stuck ropes on the first rap in The Big E. I found this curious, as I have never had this problem. So, part of this trip was to investigate these reports, and see what was going on. Which leads to this anchor quiz - ie, an opportunity for us all to discuss how one figures out what anchor to use for a particular drop. Yes, it would be easier if we were all there at the head of the drop, ready to rig... so imagine we're all there, working it out...

http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/

Please - what do you think? What DID you think, last time you were there? How would you rig this drop?

Tom

I asked the wrong question. The real question I am trying to get at is:

How do you choose which of several anchor options to use? What factors do you consider? In this specific case, what did you consider and end up with, and how did it work?

Tom

[Felicia]

Am I the only one not out and about on this Labor Day weekend? Well, I did get out today, helping a friend with his group in Engelstead, and then jugging out and carrying the ropes up the hill.

Recently, folks have been reporting stuck ropes on the first rap in The Big E. I found this curious, as I have never had this problem. So, part of this trip was to investigate these reports, and see what was going on. Which leads to this anchor quiz - ie, an opportunity for us all to discuss how one figures out what anchor to use for a particular drop. Yes, it would be easier if we were all there at the head of the drop, ready to rig... so imagine we're all there, working it out...

http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/

Please - what do you think? What DID you think, last time you were there? How would you rig this drop?

Tom

I asked the wrong question. The real question I am trying to get at is:

How do you choose which of several anchor options to use? What factors do you consider? In this specific case, what did you consider and end up with, and how did it work?

Tom

Unfortunately, you were not alone being at home.

I felt unable to participate in answering your question as originally posed because I have never been through Engelstead. But, I'm very interested in doing this canyon ever since it became a news item this past June.

I had all weekend end to think/dwell/dream about this - and I can answer your second question.

My answer to your second question would be Tree A. I would wrap a sling around the tree with the ring well over the edge. I think having the ring well over the edge would keep the crack from eating the rope during the pull based on what I can see in the picture. I think the take off from this tree would be easier than the other choices.

So, applying additional skill knowledge, I got to thinking what tree I would use if I wanted to set up a retrievable anchor. I decided that I would chose Tree B because I think the retrievable anchor would be easier to pull and there is less chance of the rope getting caught. The take-off would be more challenging.

[nonot]

Haven't done E yet, and I might pick none of the above. The tree halfway between A and B a little further from the edge looks the best, easy to extend the anchor to the lip, easy to get on rappel with the extended anchor.

However that tree looks kinda dead from the photo...if so then B looks like it has less chance of eating my rope and the edge is not as sharp.

In all the circus webbing, none of those appear to be paying attention to leaving a small angle after wrapping the tree, fail x 5. Although maybe that's why 5 are tied

P.S. Is that a biner on biner block I see?

[ratagonia]

P.S. Is that a biner on biner block I see?

Nope. Two locking biners fixing the rope to the anchor.

T

[trackrunner]

Still doesn't chang my answer. Tree B wrap two pull one because it is an easy pull, no rope eating cracks, no core shot sharp edges, and it's the tree I've seen been used on the Beta websites.

I would like to use tree C, D or E to go down the main flute sometime. But would need to use some rope protectors to prevent core shots.

[ratagonia]

Haven't done E yet, and I might pick none of the above. The tree halfway between A and B a little further from the edge looks the best, easy to extend the anchor to the lip, easy to get on rappel with the extended anchor.

However that tree looks kinda dead from the photo...if so then B looks like it has less chance of eating my rope and the edge is not as sharp.

In all the circus webbing, none of those appear to be paying attention to leaving a small angle after wrapping the tree, fail x 5. Although maybe that's why 5 are tied

P.S. Is that a biner on biner block I see?

I considered this a better 'QUIZ' for those who are NOT familiar with the area. But it is very difficult to capture the possibilities and the geometry with simple 2D photographs.

Yes, Tree A/B is a dead stump. Not usable.

The way the webbing is tied, the included angle is a little tight. But, looks like it might, at most, double the load on the webbing. 2 x 300 lbs = 600 lbs - well withing the working load of the webbing. Not an issue.

Tom

[taatmk]

Out of C, D, or E, which if any avoid trouble with the abrasive rock edge and its effects on the rope?

[ratagonia]

Out of C, D, or E, which if any avoid trouble with the abrasive rock edge and its effects on the rope?

(thanks for playing)

Between C and D, I think you can see that C is rigged high, so it crosses the edge with a shallow rope angle, but it does happen to be at a 'hard' spot, but this is very hard to see (without core-shotting two ropes there).

D, on the other hand, comes from the tree horizontal, and has to bend 90 degrees to go down. It happens to do this mostly at one point, out on the edge, which has a bit of an ironstone hunk. The place further back is a sharp edge, but the included angle is shallow, thus, it ends up not putting a lot of force on the rope.

Tree E I have not investigated for these issues, but other than the difficulty of getting in to the base of the tree, the path of the rope looks pretty good, pretty clean.

Here's the pic of the Tree "D" rope going over the edge.

Tom

[Jaxx]

I would put anchors on 5 of the trees and tie them with an overhand at the end to equalize them. I would have a piece of super durable rubber mat to cover edges, it would be permanently attached with webbing to the closest tree.

might be costly and unpleasing to the eyes but you know my setup won't blow. Unless I forget something, which is possible.

[Iceaxe]

We have stuck a rope on the Englestead entrance rappel...... but we did it a bit different.....

We were using the mid-wall transfer station. The first guy down was afraid of rapping off the end of his rope so he ties a knot in the bottom of the rappel ropes. As he is rappeling down the ropes do their normal 5% stretch and the knot slips into a crack below the mid-wall transfer station and effectively puts the person on rappel into a fireman's belay.... He was stopped completely from continuing the rappel.

I'm not sure if there is a moral to this story.... except... maybe.... there is always more than one way to screw the pooch.....

[Bugs]

I believe we used the blue webbing at tree "A" for our decent during Bogley Fest this year, it was either the only strap there and checked out okay (looks like it was all used up by the time you got there though) so we used it, or maybe Don removed another piece of webbing... I forget (but do have pictures so can find the answer to that question).

From my noob perspective it was a great anchor as it was solid and close to the edge (less ground to pull a rope over and risk it catching). The ledge is also free of cracks that would swallow the rope. The angle on the rope didn't seem extreme, we transitioned to a second rope at the small shelf.

I didn't retrieve the ropes so can't say for sure, but don't recall there having been issues with that as there was no discussion regarding it, that I recall. It could have been a minor issue that lost relevance being overshadowed by the fall that took place while we were still at the bottom of the rap.

I wonder if any of those were new points rigged by SAR? I can see them having a general rule to only use new rigging for safety reasons. They had to retrieve dude and his brother, so perhaps left extra behind as they had other things on the mind at the time?

Regarding the circus rigging however, there does seems to be varying ages on most of those. If you are taking time to rig up a new sling, why not remove the suspect webbing and pack it out? Sheesh, what a mess! Looks like you cleaned it up and then took your additional photos.

[taatmk]

Tree E I have not investigated for these issues, but other than the difficulty of getting in to the base of the tree, the path of the rope looks pretty good, pretty clean.

Tom

I have made tentative plans to do Englestead, for the first time, next Spring. (Been practicing on long raps this summer up Logan Canyon in northern UT). I have been studying this issue of where to station the first entry rap, particularly in light of this year's accidents. Trees C, D, and E are interesting to me. From your pictures and descriptions, I am especially intrigued with exploring the Tree E option. I plan on checking it out next Spring.

Thanks for this thread and pictures, by the way... Its been very interesting and helpful.

[Bugs]

Pretty sure both falls in there were not due to starting point but errors in judgement on the part of the individuals involved.

Lessons I've learned from the events adn those who were kind enough to bring me along: have the right friction and make sure you can add some as you get further into the decent. Sling your pack to not throw you off balance. Use the right kind of rope (seemed like a no brainer to me, but it is certain that common sense is not always common).

Here's Don's Trip report regarding the second incident this year.
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17744


Sorry about the thread jack.