my subway adventure and a bunch of questions

[pablosnazzy]

hi all,

i have a bunch of questions for you experienced folks, they stem from my just completed subway adventure. i'm gonna write out the adventure first, questions will follow. if you don't want to read the trip report, just skip to the questions please.

so i just got back from zion, did the Subway. i've done lots of hiking and rappelling and walking up various mountains, but i've never canyoneered before. Subway seemed like a pretty easy intro to canyoneering, so that is what i chose to do first. i was going to do it solo, but i needed a ride to the top. i met these two kids, they just graduated highschool, while getting a permit. they needed a ride, i needed a ride, so we linked together. i had to stay with them, as i was their ride back to their car.

we started the hike at 0830, it was cool and comfortable, perfect weather, which stayed perfect all day. i had rope and harness and gloves and water and food, compass and map. i think i over prepared. they had nothing. they had a camera and three bottles of gatorade. one kid wore open toed sandals.

due to their youthful exuberance and possible lack of hiking experience, they would just plunge ahead, causing us to get off trail. the first time we ended up missing three huge cairns and almost going down into Russel Gulch. i saw the saddle with the hoodoo between it, pointed it out (they didn't know what a "saddle" was, when they read it in the book, so i taught them some basic terrain features) and figured we had to go around the draw. we had to climb out a bit and backtrack and found the trail, which went as i thought it would, this was not a big setback.

the second error was the big one. there was a cairn for the trail that led up a slope which took us to that final decent into Russel Gulch. i said we should take it, they said it was not the trail, it was a different trail from somewhere else, and we went down to a ledge.

we ended up ledged for about 1 1/2 hours. (on the ledge there was a backpack with rope and lots of gear and a map, no human to be found. i asumed it was someone who went off trail and had to be rescued. i still don't know why it was there or what happened). we couldn't climb back up and couldn't get down. after some EXTREMELY risky maneuvers, we got relatively close to the bottom. they slid down a rock face about 10 feet, i free climbed from about 30 feet down with hardly any holds (i am not a climber by any means, i was in sheer terror stricken panic survival mode) and i ended up jumping the last 10 or so feet.

the rest of the trip went smoothly. i rapped down the obstacles, they free climbed down. by the time we got to the subway, i was spent from the extra climbing and stress and fear from earlier, and i still had to get out. i was too tired to enjoy and appreciate the amazing beautiful scenery, but i did get some nice pictures. on that last climb out of the canyon to the car, the kids got ahead of me and went off the trail twice, i had to call them and point to where the trail veered, and it was an obvious well worn trail.

overall it was fun, the kids were pretty nice and good hearted, just inexperienced and full of vim and vigor. They totally helped me when i was stuck, but then again, i was stuck because of them. i'm sure in a few years they will be awesome guides somewhere, but going with them on this trip wasn't as fun as it might have been. i would have rather gone with people who know what they are doing and have some experience, but i don't know anyone who can, so i'm kinda stuck to going solo.

so here are my questions:

1) can you do subway solo? i didn't see any spot where i needed help, i could have done it alone, has anyone done it alone? what about some of the more advanced canyons? are they doable solo? has anyone done them solo?

2) the kids were "ill equipped" yet they made it no problems. open toed sandals, no ropes, they had no problems making it. you can call them stupid and lucky, but they made it, and if asked to do it again, they would probably do it the same way (without the part where we got stuck on a ledge). so where is the line between "stupid and lucky" and "the risk is overblown."

3) how do you join others for a trip? it seems to be a catch-22, you have to go with those who know to get experienced, but people only want to go with with you if you already have the experience. so how do you get experience? i want to go canyoneereing, i want to try Mystery Canyon, or Spry, i can't do it alone, but it seems no one will let me go with them. how do i meet those who will take me?

4) does overexposure to a trail make it easier? subway is supposedly difficult and requires experience. there seems to be lots of people who wake up and decide to do it. i was a bit shocked by the two kids i went with who had nothing, no gear, nothing, like they were going for a hike around the park. it almost seems like subway has been done so much, it's somehow no longer dangerous or difficult. you don't need ropes, you can just down climb everything. in fact, the less gear the better. i had a bit of a tough time swimming through the tight rocks with my pack, they just breezed through it. would going extra light be better? is there such a thing as "too much gear" and being "overprepared"?

5) so we went off trail and ended up on a ledge we weren't supposed to be on. we figured it out (sort of) and got through without injury, and a little fear is good for you. was it so wrong? yeah, we "could have" gotten hurt or stuck, but we didn't, we figured out how to get down. isn't that what back country adventuring is? solving problems? yeah it was risky and dangerous, but wasn't it just as dangerous, or more so, for the first guy who did subway? again, call us dumb and lucky, but we made it. where is the line between "that was stupid" and "that was adventure?"

if you've read this far, thanks for sticking with it. please let me know what you think, i'd really like to hear opinions of people who have been doing this for a while.

[Brian in SLC]

1) can you do subway solo? i didn't see any spot where i needed help, i could have done it alone, has anyone done it alone? what about some of the more advanced canyons? are they doable solo? has anyone done them solo?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

2) so where is the line between "stupid and lucky" and "the risk is overblown."

Somewhere in the middle, apparently...ha ha.

3) how do you join others for a trip? so how do you get experience? how do i meet those who will take me?

Get social. Join a club. Meet up at ACA events, Bogleyfest, Tomfests, etc. Network.

Sound like you went out and got some experience.

4) does overexposure to a trail make it easier?
would going extra light be better?
is there such a thing as "too much gear" and being "overprepared"?

Not really. Usually. Absolutely.

5) was it so wrong? isn't that what back country adventuring is? solving problems? yeah it was risky and dangerous, but wasn't it just as dangerous, or more so, for the first guy who did subway? where is the line between "that was stupid" and "that was adventure?"

No. Yes. Yes. Yes. Somewhere in the middle again, I'd guess.

What's that Bridwell quote? "My best vacations are your worst nightmare". Or something like that.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

due to their youthful exuberance and possible lack of hiking experience, they would just plunge ahead, causing us to get off trail. the first time we ended up missing three huge cairns and almost going down into Russel Gulch. i saw the saddle with the hoodoo between it, pointed it out (they didn't know what a "saddle" was, when they read it in the book, so i taught them some basic terrain features) and figured we had to go around the draw. we had to climb out a bit and backtrack and found the trail, which went as i thought it would, this was not a big setback.

the second error was the big one. there was a cairn for the trail that led up a slope which took us to that final decent into Russel Gulch. i said we should take it, they said it was not the trail, it was a different trail from somewhere else, and we went down to a ledge.

we ended up ledged for about 1 1/2 hours. (on the ledge there was a backpack with rope and lots of gear and a map, no human to be found. i asumed it was someone who went off trail and had to be rescued. i still don't know why it was there or what happened). we couldn't climb back up and couldn't get down. after some EXTREMELY risky maneuvers, we got relatively close to the bottom. they slid down a rock face about 10 feet, i free climbed from about 30 feet down with hardly any holds (i am not a climber by any means, i was in sheer terror stricken panic survival mode) and i ended up jumping the last 10 or so feet.


2) the kids were "ill equipped" yet they made it no problems. open toed sandals, no ropes, they had no problems making it. you can call them stupid and lucky, but they made it, and if asked to do it again, they would probably do it the same way (without the part where we got stuck on a ledge). so where is the line between "stupid and lucky" and "the risk is overblown."

Read the rescues section in The Book. http://tinyurl.com/2zdvsq If people survive it is a "great adventure", if they don't it is "A Tragedy". The natural world is surprisingly forgiving, and many people survive even though they make plenty of mistakes.

3) how do you join others for a trip? it seems to be a catch-22, you have to go with those who know to get experienced, but people only want to go with with you if you already have the experience. so how do you get experience? i want to go canyoneereing, i want to try Mystery Canyon, or Spry, i can't do it alone, but it seems no one will let me go with them. how do i meet those who will take me?

Petition here on Bogley. Lots of people take noobies on their trips - not a problem. As long as you are not a danger to yourself and others (such as two other fellows that just suddenly come to mind) you can hook in with other canyoneers, and they can show you the ropes, so to speak.

Congratulations on surviving a dangerous circumstance. Now, don't do it again. And get yourself a helmet!

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I'm just going to nod my head up and down to just about everything Brian wrote.



And add.... The next currently scheduled Bogleyfest is Nov 6 thru 8 in Moab. It's free, open to everyone, a great place to make friends and find partners for future routes.

Moab Bogleyfest link
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17804

[Iceaxe]

If you want epics look for guys who are always having epics and partner with them. And if you want to cruise through the canyon look for partners who are always cruising.....

And here is an old thread with some good info buried in it....

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2753

.

[pablosnazzy]

thanks for the input and information, i definitely appreciate it. i hope to see you out there someday in the canyons.

[cookiecutter]

so i just got back from zion, did the Subway. i've done lots of hiking and rappelling and walking up various mountains, but i've never canyoneered before. Subway seemed like a pretty easy intro to canyoneering, so that is what i chose to do first. i was going to do it solo, but i needed a ride to the top. i met these two kids, they just graduated highschool, while getting a permit. they needed a ride, i needed a ride, so we linked together. i had to stay with them, as i was their ride back to their car

Aww I thought this might pop up. Those two kids are good friends of mine. They were always telling me they wanted to go to Zion like I had done, but nothing ever came of it. Well I get a call late Sunday night, its them, and they are heading to Zion and wanting advice (how permits worked, where to stay etc.) They were already in Ogden from Idaho so they swung by my apartment to talk. We ran over the easy stuff, I then asked what canyons they were doing. They said Narrows and Subway, I think 'alright I think I'm qualified to help, good and easy, and I've done Subway.' They then told me they wanted to do Subway from the top, i say 'you'll be fine IF you can find the canyon opening, its hard and if you go into the wrong canyon you will DIE!' I let them borrow Tom's book and told them they SHOULD NOT go from the top unless they really believe they can follow the route description. We went over other basic stuff, then I told them the first thing to do is get helmets! I thought I really stressed this, but apparently not enough. I later found out they didn't and, in very blunt terms, I told them I'd never do any canyoneering/mountaineering/etc with them again if they didn't get helmets - I think I finally got the point across.

Anyways, pablosnazzy, they talked about you. They really are good guys, but didn't follow Tom's book NOR the things I told them. You all made it out safe and, just as for you, it was a good learning experience for them as well. I was a little angry when I found out they didn't take the gear they found to the backcountry desk.

[pablosnazzy]

so i just got back from zion, did the Subway. i've done lots of hiking and rappelling and walking up various mountains, but i've never canyoneered before. Subway seemed like a pretty easy intro to canyoneering, so that is what i chose to do first. i was going to do it solo, but i needed a ride to the top. i met these two kids, they just graduated highschool, while getting a permit. they needed a ride, i needed a ride, so we linked together. i had to stay with them, as i was their ride back to their car

Aww I thought this might pop up. Those two kids are good friends of mine. They were always telling me they wanted to go to Zion like I had done, but nothing ever came of it. Well I get a call late Sunday night, its them, and they are heading to Zion and wanting advice (how permits worked, where to stay etc.) They were already in Ogden from Idaho so they swung by my apartment to talk. We ran over the easy stuff, I then asked what canyons they were doing. They said Narrows and Subway, I think 'alright I think I'm qualified to help, good and easy, and I've done Subway.' They then told me they wanted to do Subway from the top, i say 'you'll be fine IF you can find the canyon opening, its hard and if you go into the wrong canyon you will DIE!' I let them borrow Tom's book and told them they SHOULD NOT go from the top unless they really believe they can follow the route description. We went over other basic stuff, then I told them the first thing to do is get helmets! I thought I really stressed this, but apparently not enough. I later found out they didn't and, in very blunt terms, I told them I'd never do any canyoneering/mountaineering/etc with them again if they didn't get helmets - I think I finally got the point across.

Anyways, pablosnazzy, they talked about you. They really are good guys, but didn't follow Tom's book NOR the things I told them. You all made it out safe and, just as for you, it was a good learning experience for them as well. I was a little angry when I found out they didn't take the gear they found to the backcountry desk.

They are great kids, i'd go with them again after they get a bit more experience. tell them i say hello, and i owe them a dinner. i meant to buy them a dinner but they had to get gas and i didn't see them after that.

[cookiecutter]

They are great kids, i'd go with them again after they get a bit more experience. tell them i say hello, and i owe them a dinner. i meant to buy them a dinner but they had to get gas and i didn't see them after that.

Will do. good luck with all your adventures!